Question about the Berlin Wall

carlowplayer

Was a similar wall in berlin built before it I remember hearing that there was one built in or around berlin sometime around 1700-1900

spurious

Indeed there was.
The Berlin Customs Wall.
The Brandenburg gate is the only one left.

tac foley

The recently-removed Berlin Wall did not actually circumnavigate Berlin, simply divide the Soviet Occupation Zone from those of the US, British and French.

Of course, Berlin was a lot smaller when the Berlin Customs Wall was built...

tac, former occupant of #4/16a Dickensweg, Charlottenburg, Berlin.

Peregrinus

tac foley wrote: »

The recently-removed Berlin Wall did not actually circumnavigate Berlin, simply divide the Soviet Occupation Zone from those of the US, British and French.

It completely encircled West Berlin (which was the US, British and French occupation zones).

tac foley

I was simply pointing out that the older wall DID enclose the city of Berlin, but that the later one did not.

Implicit in my statement was that the Berlin Wall enclosed only the Western Allied Sectors, but not the Soviet sector. ALL four sectors together comprised Berlin.

tac

Peregrinus

tac foley wrote: »

I was simply pointing out that the older wall DID enclose the city of Berlin, but that the later one did not.

Implicit in my statement was that the Berlin Wall enclosed only the Western Allied Sectors, but not the Soviet sector. ALL four sectors together comprised Berlin.

tac

Sure. I just wanted to counter a possible misinterpretation of what you said, which was that the Wall ran along the West Berlin/Soviet Zone line of control, but that the West Berlin/East Germany border was secured in other ways. (I have met people who thought that this was the case.) In fact the Wall was a continuous loop, but as you point out it did not enclose the entire city of Berlin. In fact it ran right through the centre.

tac foley

I lived there for three years, as giving my former address might possibly indicate.

I was a member of BRIXMIS [Google BRIXMIS].

I rather naively thought that many people would know the actual location of Berlin as an entity, rather than have some strange notion that it actually straddled the IGB [Inner German Border]. As such, Berlin is only about 40 miles from the Polish border.

tac

Boskowski

I'm from Berlin and had never heard of the Berlin Customs Wall before. I doubt it very much that it was in any way similar to what is now known as the Berlin Wall after looking up the Berlin Customs Wall.

After WW2 Germany was split into 4 occupied sectors and due to its special (capitol) status Berlin was separated and again divided into 4 sectors. The 3 western sectors of Germany became West-Germany (Bundesrepublik), the Russian sector became the GDR. The Russian sector of Berlin became the capitol of the GDR aka East-Berlin while the 3 western sectors of Berlin became this unique political island surrounded by the Berlin Wall between 1961 and 1989 aka West-Berlin.

The wall itself was heavily fortified with several rows of fences and strips with land mines and runs for dogs and whatnots and over the 28 years it stood several hundreds of people lost their lives there trying to cross the border into West-Berlin. A similarly fortified border basically existed all the way through Europe known as the Iron Curtain but its most iconic piece was the Berlin Wall.

tac foley

Sir, there was nothing on earth like the non-lamented Berlin Wall.

tac

Peregrinus

tac foley wrote: »

I lived there for three years, as giving my former address might possibly indicate.

I was a member of BRIXMIS [Google BRIXMIS].

I rather naively thought that many people would know the actual location of Berlin as an entity, rather than have some strange notion that it actually straddled the IGB [Inner German Border]. As such, Berlin is only about 40 miles from the Polish border.

tac

I think you miss my point. West Berlin was not surrounded by the Soviet zone. If you walked all the way around the perimeter of West Berlin, looking out, part of the time you would be looking into the Soviet zone, but most of the time you would be looking into the Potsdam district of the DDR. Consequently when you say that the Wall "simply divided the Soviet Occupation Zone from those of the US, British and French", that could leave someone with the impression that only ran along the perimeter with the Soviet occupation zone, but not along the perimeter with the Potsdam district. That impression would be wrong. The Wall did not simply divide West Berlin from the Soviet Zone; it completely surrounded West Berlin, dividing it not only from the Soviet Zone but also from the Potsdam district.

tac foley

I don't miss your point at all, so let us not argue about how the ENTIRE DDR was part of the Soviet Zone.

Let us not argue about the disparity between the military forces of the DDR and the many times superior occupation forces of the-then Soviet Union.

Let us not argue about how the German population of the DDR was, for the most part, scared totally fartless of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops occupying the artificial country that was the DDR as part of the spoils of war ceded to the Soviet Union. Talking to my Soviet counterparts I was never in any doubt about what would happen if the SHTF and the troops of the DDR did not behave as good little Warsaw Pact soldiers should.

I drove down the Potsdamer Chaussée and crossed the Glienicke Bridge almost every day of my life for three years, and although the plainly visible troops there were NVA, there was never any doubt who was pulling the strings.

tac

galwaycyclist

To lighten the tone a bit. I recall in 1989 during the protests that lead to the wall coming down. The Ossis (Easterners) used the slogan "Wir sind ein Volk". While some of the Wessis (Westerners) called back "Ja, wir auch".

Translated
Ossi: "We are one people!"
Wessi : "Yes, we are as well!"

Boskowski

I was there in 89 and I don't remember us (the 'Wessies') shouting that. I suppose I wasn't really shouting anything anyway, but I would have heard of it I think. What the 'Ossies' were shouting was a little different too I'm afraid.

They weren't shouting 'we are one people' which might have been suggesting they felt as one with the 'Wessies'. They were shouting 'we are the people', emphasis on 'we'. As in 'not you' (the apparatchiks).

roundymac

I was there in 1988. Went through Checkpoint Charlie twice, first by tour bus and then a couple of days later on foot. Talk about going into a different world, on the bus we had an East German guide who kept us fasinated by the wonderful life they lived. Getting so much extra money and bigger aprtments for every extra child they had, being able to qualify for a telephone after 4 years of being married. She then spoiled it all by bringing to a capialist style duty free shop. It was set in park, on the way in we passed a stall (garden shed) which was selling snacks to the East Germans only. We entered a walled compound with a duty free shop to rival any western airport and a burger joint (not quite MacDonalds) where West German Marks were the currency. Exchange was on a one for one basis.
Going in on foot later was exciting, having one's passport checked 6 times in about 100 metres while going through left you in no doubt that you were in a police state. Eating some of the food was another experience, East German Cola hopefully is no longer available, it certainly was not the "real thing".

galwaycyclist

Boskowski wrote: »

I was there in 89 and I don't remember us (the 'Wessies') shouting that. I suppose I wasn't really shouting anything anyway, but I would have heard of it I think. What the 'Ossies' were shouting was a little different too I'm afraid.

They weren't shouting 'we are one people' which might have been suggesting they felt as one with the 'Wessies'. They were shouting 'we are the people', emphasis on 'we'. As in 'not you' (the apparatchiks).

I was in (West) Germany in 89 and that was the kind of joke doing the rounds. Although it would have been a difficult concern to express in public, the idea of unification was not universally welcome..

It still isnt - the Germans talk of the "Maur im Kopf" - the wall in the head.

For a long time there was a sizable enough minority who would like to see it rebuilt.

http://www.dw.de/breaking-down-the-wall-in-the-head/a-1344803

Boskowski

Well I will admit it. When it happened my reaction was 'really?'...

Of course I wouldn't want it reversed now but I was very much a child of the Wall, the 'right side' admittedly, and there were very valid concerns at the time. There is no doubt Germany has been struggling with it and the political changes since then while of course couldn't be looked at in isolation aren't all fantastic. One may look at the Ukraine thingy for instance and some io the right wing up Americas arse war mongering is scary.

ChicagoJoe

tac foley wrote: »

Sir, there was nothing on earth like the non-lamented Berlin Wall.

tac

People who have seen both the Berlin and Israeli wall around the Palestinain areas have told me the Israeli one is worse.

tac foley

The avowed intent of those on the other side of the Gaza wall is the total annihilation of every man, woman and child in Israel. As one palestinian - a ten y/o girl - once noted to me - her deepest wish was to shoot the last Jewish mother and her baby as they stood in the waves on the shore of Israel.

But then, you don't want to hear this.

Your palestinian buddies could have had everything they asked for, and were given the money and the help to do it, but they built tunnels and bought rockets instead.

tac

ChicagoJoe

tac foley wrote: »

The avowed intent of those on the other side of the Gaza wall is the total annihilation of every man, woman and child in Israel. As one palestinian - a ten y/o girl - once noted to me - her deepest wish was to shoot the last Jewish mother and her baby as they stood in the waves on the shore of Israel.

But then, you don't want to hear this.

Your palestinian buddies could have had everything they asked for, and were given the money and the help to do it, but they built tunnels and bought rockets instead.

tac

But your a bit biased aren't you tac, wasn't your grandfather an Israeli from Cork? Who apparently also was a former member of the IRA in the War of Independence who later joined the British army or was it the RAF ?

tac foley

Dear Mr Chicago Joe - my dad, a catholic christian, was the son of a clerk of the Cork Steam Packet. My mother was Jewish.

My dad got jailed by the British for his part in setting fire to a RIC barracks in 1920.

When he came out of jail at the signing of the Truce he joined the FSA. His elder brother was in the IRA during the Civil War.

He was not permitted to join the British Army because of his criminal record.

I am 5' 11" and weigh 220 pounds. In mitigation of my apparent bulk, I have to tell you that I have a forty-five inch chest, and a 36 inch waist and I'm still pretty athletic. I was a redhead but am now mostly bald, but I still have quite a few of my own teeth. I'm ambidextrous, too. I enjoy shooting, ice hockey, skiing and travel. I write a lot of stuff for a couple of esoteric society journals that you have to be a paid-up member to read, so it's unilkely that you'll ever get to read any of it. I build and run small trains, propelled by steam - you can see them on Youtube if you look hard enough. I have a little Porsche convertible and a Mercedes-Benz station wagon here in UK, a Chrysler Voyager in Canada and a Subaru Forester in Oregon.

I'm a gentle soul, who loves birdies, and fosters a vulture at a local raptor sanctuary.

I still have my first teddybear, taken off the christmas tree in the hospital where i spent my first Christmas.

I have one dead son, buried in Germany, and one live, but severely-disabled daughter. We have a wonderful granddaughter who is normal in every way.

I suffer fools because I never know when I might be taken for one by somebody cleverer than I am, and I put up with sh*te from folks like you because I'm really a peacable kind of a guy, and don't really enjoy getting involved in p*ss-takingly dirty little posts like yours, but heck, here I am doing just that.

Although I AM flattered to see that you've taken all that trouble to research me, in spite of the errors, I nevertheless earnestly wish you a simultaneous dose of extreme diarhoea and uncontrollable sneezing.

tac

jonniebgood1

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

But your a bit biased aren't you tac, wasn't your grandfather an Israeli from Cork? Who apparently also was a former member of the IRA in the War of Independence who later joined the British army or was it the RAF ?

Infraction for trolling.

This has nothing to do with the thread. Any more of this crap will result in permanent ban.

Moderator