Reclining seats

Idbatterim

What are peoples opinion on reclining seats? they do my absolute nut, they seem to be generating quite a lot of attention at the moment... I think they create far more discomfort for the person behind, than they increase comfort for the person reclining. If the pitch wasnt so pathetic, they wouldnt be as bad. I took a Ryanair flight at 6:20 this morning and at that hour if I had the seat shoved back into my face, I honestly wouldnt have been impressed!

http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/16-gadget-sparks-right-to-recline-row-among-airline-passengers-30548297.html

€16 gadget sparks 'right to recline' row among airline passengers - See more at:

Aer Lingus has assured customers they won't have to fight for the right to recline despite soaring sales of a controversial travel gadget that prevents passengers from leaning back in their seats. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/16-gadget-sparks-right-to-recline-row-among-airline-passengers-30548297.html#sthash.KRsutZNv.dpuf

A device called the Knee Defender - which boasts the motto "standing up for the right of the tall guy to sit down" - sparked an air rage incident aboard an United Airlines Flight in America last week.

A 48-year-old female passenger who was unable to recline in her seat dumped a glass of water on a passenger who was using the gadget.

The male passenger who was seated behind her refused to remove the portable device - which can be attached to a seatback table to prevent the passenger in front from leaning backwards.

Both passengers were thrown off the flight when a mid-air row ensued, forcing the flight, which was bound for Denver, Colorado from Newark, New Jersey to divert to Chicago.

While the device is legal in Ireland, it has not sparked any air rage incidents here, the Irish Aviation Authority said.

But that doesn't mean the devices are welcome here either.

An Aer Lingus spokesman said it's "considering the situation" but hasn't banned the device yet, although "passengers are entitled to their comfort and have the right to recline if they choose."

Ryanair doesn't have seats which recline and has no intention of fitting them in the future, a spokesman said.

But a spokesman for American Airlines, which has banned the anti-recline device on its daily flights from Dublin to the US, said: "It's a shame when passengers take umbrage against fellow passengers when it's a question of using manners."

He added that etiquette also applies when passengers vie for arm-rest space with fellow passengers.

The air rage incident has now sparked a heated debate in the US where most major airlines have now banned the device.

The device is dubbed "a special favourite of tall frequent fliers" and described as being "as ingenious as it is devious," by luxury travel magazine Conde Nast Traveler.

The simple plastic device, which retails online for €16.65 ($21.95), has been on the market since 2003 but only recently came to prominence.

It was the brainchild of former US Congress staff member Ira Goldman, who stands at 6'3".

Irish Independent
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/16-gadget-sparks-right-to-recline-row-among-airline-passengers-30548297.html#sthash.KRsutZNv.dpuf

L1011

Hate the bloody things. One thing Ryanair did right

owenc

I can't stand them. On one of my last flights the passenger in front of me had their seat shoved back before we even took off.

I wouldn't mind if the passenger put it back a bit but when its literally in your face I am mad. For me I only put my seat-back on long night flights as I know how annoying and obnoxious it can be.
I noticed the recline feature got ALOT more use in America than here.

spurious

Agree about the reclining seats - excellent decision by Ryanair.
Next, parents who feed their spawn fizzy drinks while allowing them to kick the seats of the row in front of them. Yes, I'm talking about you, 'Daddy of the year' in 19D FR663 on the 28th August.

Outkast_IRE

Maybe just me but i find on the short haul flights that the seat recline is probably not needed but it can add a bit of comfort.

On long haul in economy it is pretty necessary for comfort in my opinion its hard to sleep on a flight anyway but without seat recline i would find it impossible, i was on a 747 with Virgin atlantic this year and the seat in front of me was reclined the entire time and it didnt make too much difference, but on some of the shorthaul flights it makes a big difference maybe they have less room between seats .

owenc

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Maybe just me but i find on the short haul flights that the seat recline is probably not needed but it can add a bit of comfort.

On long haul in economy it is pretty necessary for comfort in my opinion its hard to sleep on a flight anyway but without seat recline i would find it impossible, i was on a 747 with Virgin atlantic this year and the seat in front of me was reclined the entire time and it didnt make too much difference, but on some of the shorthaul flights it makes a big difference maybe they have less room between seats .

It depends.

When I fly to New York I never put my seat back as I don't see a need to, especially since I know the people behind me will be watching tv/playing games on the screen.

But if I were to fly further like Los Angeles or Delhi then I would probably have to put the seat back due to back pain.

arubex

Can't stand reclining seats, particularly on US carriers where it is the passengers' glorious, indisuptable right to slam the seat back into your face. Dear help the poor sod in the non-reclining bulkhead row as he sees the reclining wave approaching him...

Years of commuting on buses have trained to sleep sitting bolt upright so I never recline my seat. Hopefully it gives the person behind me a slightly more pleasant flight.

Preset No.3

Love reclining seats, throw them back, have a cocktail and chill out. Then put them into lie flat mode!

owenc

arubex wrote: »

Can't stand reclining seats, particularly on US carriers where it is the passengers' glorious, indisuptable right to slam the seat back into your face. Dear help the poor sod in the non-reclining bulkhead row as he sees the reclining wave approaching him...

Years of commuting on buses have trained to sleep sitting bolt upright so I never recline my seat. Hopefully it gives the person behind me a slightly more pleasant flight.

Good to know i'm not the only one who noticed this. Americans are so rude when it comes to flying, its absolutely pathetic they really do not give a **** about the passenger behind them.
I love America but the people in that country are so loud and full of themselves...

IRLConor

If economy seats reclined by moving the arse of the seat forwards (thereby reducing their space rather than their neighbour's) then none of the it's-my-god-given-right-to-recline crowd would recline.

I think the airlines are missing out on an additional revenue opportunity by further segmenting their economy cabin. I'd happily pay another €50 per leg on a long haul flight to prevent the person in front of me from reclining. I do the best I can to get exit row/bulkhead seats but there's only so many of those per aircraft.

Tenger

IRLConor wrote: »

If economy seats reclined by moving the arse of the seat forwards (thereby reducing their space rather than their neighbour's) then none of the it's-my-god-given-right-to-recline crowd would recline........

I have read about fixed back seats like this. I think they are being introduced by a few airlines recently.

Definitely a crowd pleaser.

Strumms

+1 to the anti-recliner movement here. So annoying to be stuck behind a recliner twat, as I was coming back from NCE this week. The type that always decides to do it when you are eating and or drinking and instead of even reclining gently back does it with such force they almost break the seat and send your food and beverages flying to the row behind you. Second only in annoying levels to the kid kicking the **** out of the back of your seat and the parents saying **** all.

Anyway.. I don't even find seats anything but uncomfortable at that angle myself, you are not lying down or sitting up. One of the only plus experiences of travelling FR in my view is their non reclining seats.

owenc

Besides emergencies or visiting family members I see no reason why young children should ever be on planes, its not like they'll remember the holiday. I am going on Ryanair soon and I will enjoy the prospect of having no recline!

Thank goodness for no assigned seats either, on every single flight in America that I went on there was a row about where people where sited.

Strumms

owenc wrote: »

Besides emergencies or visiting family members I see no reason why young children should ever be on planes, its not like they'll remember the holiday.

:pac::pac::pac:

You could maybe start a business for yourself 'kiddie kennels'. Board the kid, dogs stays free.

losthorizon

Hate Reclining seats with a passion not just on flights but also on buses. Its incredibly uncomfortably for the person sitting behind.

owenc

Strumms wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

You could maybe start a business for yourself 'kiddie kennels'. Board the kid, dogs stays free.

:pac:

cml387

Listening to Today on BBC R4 this morning they had an ex cabin crew member speaking on this exact subject.
She mentioned something about using a plastic bottle and the meal tray to prevent the seat in front reclining.

Senecio

They are necessity on long haul, but any flight under 6 hours should be fixed back.

IRLConor

Senecio wrote: »

They are necessity on long haul

It's long haul where they particularly hurt someone like me. I can't sleep in economy at all, and reclining hurts my back so if someone reclines in front of me I end up with their seat back in my face for the duration.

It's worse again on the westbound flights since I'm often trying to get some work done and if the person in front of me reclines I can't open my laptop and type at the same time. It's one or the other.

smurfjed

I have read about fixed back seats like this.

Yep they exist, the base of the seat extends out so the angle is changed, however the back doesn't move into the space of the person behind.

ted1

A seat that slides forward to recline wouldn't be hard to design, let's you recline and only impairs your own leg room

murphaph

These seats already exist on trains here but they are clearly much more substantial than standard seats and I suspect adapting the design for aircraft use is non trivial. They must be light at the end of the day.

doolox

Non reclining seats ensure that you get all the space that you paid for. Why should someone in front rob your space? Would you let someone put their hand in your pocket and take your cash? Same thing in my view if someone reclines into your space and ruins your flight by robbing your space.

Tenger

doolox wrote: »

....... Would you let someone put their hand in your pocket and take your cash? Same thing in my view if someone reclines into your space and ruins your flight by robbing your space.

That the attitude that causes arguments on flights. Every pax is entitled to recline their seat. However the way they recline it is often the spark that annoys people. I have seen it happen on US flights, as soon as that seat belt goes off suddenly approx 50% o the seats flop back. There's reclining and there's dropped back. In my experience half reclined seats improve your comfort but don't hugely impact on the pax behind.

owenc

Well they are entitled to recline but I don't really agree that they have a right to put their seat into full recline so that the person behind has little or no room.

Only if the person has a medical problem should that really be done.

John_Mc

doolox wrote: »

Non reclining seats ensure that you get all the space that you paid for. Why should someone in front rob your space? Would you let someone put their hand in your pocket and take your cash? Same thing in my view if someone reclines into your space and ruins your flight by robbing your space.

What utter and complete nonsense. If someone reclines in front of you then you recline yourself.

Talk about making a mountain of a molehill. The seats recline about 3 inches :rolleyes:

owenc

No I don't recline as I feel bad reclining on top of the person behind me.

And no the seat on United Airlines reclines on 5 inches..
i'm just back and on a 2 hour domestic flight over there I had a passenger in front who just threw his seat in my face without even looking, its pretty common place.
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/2/3/2/1886232.jpg

jackofalltrades

Really don't see the need for it on short-haul flights.
It makes sense on long-haul flights but only when it's in proportion to the available seat pitch.
Nothing worse than having a seat back in your face for a whole flight.

I've been on a flight where the person in-front went to full recline the second the seat belt light was switched off.
Even though they were in an exit row and were up and down talking to other people for the flight.

spurious

owenc wrote: »

i'm just back and on a 2 hour domestic flight over there I had a passenger in front who just threw his seat in my face without even looking, its pretty common place.
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/2/3/2/1886232.jpg

You should have developed a desperate spluttery cough and not covered your mouth.

LiamoSail

I don't see the problem with it. If you've paid for a seat that reclines, then you're entitled to use that facility.

For those with an issue with reclining seats, your issue can be avoided by upgrading to business class. Going on a plane and complaining about reclining seats is akin to going on a bus and complaining about traffic. You know the deal when you book, if you don't like it, pay that bit extra to avoid it

timetogo

For short haul I think theres no need for recliners.
For longer flights (more than 3 hours) the seat can get pretty uncomfortable so I like the option of moving the seat back a bit. And if it's an overnight flight the seat is going back as far as it can.

I think people get too emotional about it though. Having a seat recline in front of me doesn't really bother me. I'm tall enough (5ft 11) and fly 3 or 4 times a year so I've been on most carriers. There are people who (no matter how tall / short they are) have to spread their legs as wide as possible. That annoys me more on a flight.
Generally if there's a TV in the seat in front of you they have adjustable viewing angles so the seat going back doesn't mean you can't watch the TV. I always manage to get an aisle or window seat. I'd imagine it'd be really annoying with a person either side and a recliner in front of you.

IRLConor

John_Mc wrote: »

If someone reclines in front of you then you recline yourself.

What if you're like me and reclining is painful? Just suck it up for 10 hours?

LiamoSail wrote: »

pay that bit extra

It's more than a bit!

I fly business when I can, and when I can't afford/justify the extra cost I pay what I can to get an exit/bulkhead seat. I do try to pay my way out of it but it's not always possible.

Tenger

I don't think they is a happy solution to this issue. Fault (if you want to call it that) lies with the aviation industry. An aircraft that might have carried 156 pax 15 years ago is now configured to carry 174 (26 rows vs 29) While 3 extra rows may not seem a bit deal it nonetheless lessens the space between each seat. This in turn makes any encroachment into that space much more acute.

"Paying your way out of it" is not always possible or achievable for most pax.
Until a new seat design emerges that satisfies both airline bean counters and paying pax we will be putting up with this issue for the foreseeable future.


EDIT: I'll acknowledge Graham's input below by agreeing with him. The consumer driven race to lower fares has driven the need for airlines to increase seats per aircraft to lower operating costs (CASM in industry vernacular)

2 stroke

I have long legs and avoid flying as much as possible. I usually book an aisle seat so that I can keep one leg in the aisle and get up to walk around as much as possible. I find it interesting that Ryanair do not have reclining seats, I've never flown with them but considering their penny pinching ways, do they allow legroom?

John_Mc

2 stroke wrote: »

I have long legs and avoid flying as much as possible. I usually book an aisle seat so that I can keep one leg in the aisle and get up to walk around as much as possible. I find it interesting that Ryanair do not have reclining seats, I've never flown with them but considering their penny pinching ways, do they allow legroom?

I'm 6 foot and there's just enough legroom on Ryanair aircraft.

They have perfected the angle so that it's practically impossible to go to sleep. A sleeping passenger doesn't boost ancillary revenue after all!

Graham

Tenger wrote: »

Fault (if you want to call it that) lies with the aviation industry. An aircraft that might have carried 156 pax 15 years ago is now configured to carry 174 (26 rows vs 29) While 3 extra rows may not seem a bit deal it nonetheless lessens the space between each seat.

Fault (if you want to call it that) lies with the travelling public who will choose Airline A with high density seating rather than Airline B with normal density seating that costs €30 more. This quickly forces Airline B to cram in more seats and reduce the fares contributing to the downward spiral in standards.

More long-haul airlines are recognising that there are some people who would pay an extra few euro for a bit more leg room so they offer an Economy+ option. Same cabin/seat/food/check-in but an extra few inches of pitch between seats.

qdawg86

IRLConor wrote: »

What if you're like me and reclining is painful? Just suck it up for 10 hours?



Well isn't that what you are asking the person in front you to do ? Sitting bolt upright for 10 hours is likely to cause discomfort for many people too.

IRLConor

qdawg86 wrote: »

Well isn't that what you are asking the person in front you to do ? Sitting bolt upright for 10 hours is likely to cause discomfort for many people too.

Some sense of compromise might be nice.

I might be willing to put up with it for half the flight if I absolutely have to, but the times I've asked people (very politely!) to not fully recline in my face I've been met with outright hostility and rudeness.

billy few mates

A couple of years ago I was travelling back on an EI flight from the States and my teenage son was sitting across the aisle from me. before the A/C took off the person sitting behind my son 'decreed' to him that he was not to recline his seat at any time during the flight as (in his words) he "being over six feet tall needed all the room he could get". My son also being over six feet tall and wanting to sleep on the flight politely told him that he was entitled to recline his seat and was going to do just that.
There then followed a brief period where the passenger behind started kicking and shaking the back of my son's seat and I noticed the commotion and asked what was happening.
Upon hearing what this person said to my son I immediately called the purser who in no uncertain terms told the person that my son was to be allowed recline the seat he had paid for which he did. there then followed another brief period of kicking the seat so I summoned the purser again. The purser again restated that my son was to be allowed to recline his seat as far as he wished, and stood there while he did. he then told the passenger behind that if he continued to kick the seat and annoy other passengers he would have him arrested on arrival. When this passenger protested that because he was "over six feet tall" and needed the space he was politely told that in future he should consider buying a business class seat to ensure he got the space he needed..!

Just last week I was on a flight of approx 3 hrs and I reclined my seat for a snooze, shortly afterwards when the CC came around with the breakfast the person behind me politely woke me and asked me to straighten up my seat, which I immediately did (although the person in front of me didn't and I didn't ask). After the meal was finished and the trays removed I immediately reclined my seat again and everybody was happy.

If I buy a seat that reclines I'm fully entitled to use it at all times except when directed by the CC for take off and landing, if that bothers you then you need to pay a bit extra to avoid having to 'share your space' with me...

2 stroke

I like the idea of economy plus seats, I'm just over 6 foot tall and about 16 stone weight. Petite passengers could benifit from low cost compact seating, while larger pasengers could pay extra for some more space. Ofcourse there could be problems then with family members not sitting together.

km991148

billy few mates wrote: »

...
and asked me to straighten up my seat..

This is it - like dont be a ars3 and talk to people and all should be grand..

I never really adjust my seat (and I am tall) but when I do I either quickly ask or lower it slightly and slowly.. never any issues (so far!)

qdawg86

IRLConor wrote: »

Some sense of compromise might be nice.

I might be willing to put up with it for half the flight if I absolutely have to, but the times I've asked people (very politely!) to not fully recline in my face I've been met with outright hostility and rudeness.

Compromise would be nice. But so far all I've read on this thread is......YOU are NOT to recline in your seat.

Also, I don't quite understand the repeated statements being made about ppl reclining.... right into my face.......the seats don't go back into peoples faces-that's a complete exaggeration.

doolox

Non reclining seats take away the discretion, often misused by passengers of taking other peoples space. Since there is no possibility of movement then there is no possibility of a row developing.

I find that any ambiguity or choice given to people in public places, bad signage, ill defined queues etc can lead to rows.

Queues in supermarkets etc can be delayed by overdemanding customers delaying paying, looking for difficult to get items etc. Reclining seats hamper the person behind from using the tray for reading, writing eating etc and can detract greatly from enjoying a flight.

I find that non reclining seats tend to be firmer and more securely fastened to the floor of the aircraft so that people kicking the seat back behind you cannot rock your seat as severely as with older reclining seats. Some older aircraft have such badly secured seats that the slightest touch on them by other people can rock over their occupants causing drinks to fall over etc. I find that some people grab every seat on their way up the aisle disturbing the other passengers with not a thought for their comfort or security. Non reclining seats reduce this disturbance.

Tenger

billy few mates wrote: »

A couple of years ago I was travelling back ...... from the States and my teenage son was sitting across the aisle from me. before the A/C took off the person sitting behind my son 'decreed' to him that he was not to recline his seat at any time during the flight as (in his words) he "being over six feet tall needed all the room he could get"......
Upon hearing what this person said to my son I immediately called the purser who in no uncertain terms told the person that my son was to be allowed recline the seat he had paid for which he did. there then followed another brief period of kicking the seat so I summoned the purser again. The purser ........then told the passenger behind that if he continued to kick the seat and annoy other passengers he would have him arrested on arrival........

If I buy a seat that reclines I'm fully entitled to use it at all times except when directed by the CC for take off and landing, if that bothers you then you need to pay a bit extra to avoid having to 'share your space' with me...

And herein is a lesson in human behaviour. reaching a mutally agreeable compromise is always better than one party dictating to the other. I have seen this scenario so many times where one party believes that they can tell another passenger what they can/cannot do. I do get a (small...honest) thrill out of reminding them that the cabin crew are the representatives of the aircraft commander so THEY tell you what you can/cannot do on an aircraft.

doolox

....for new story concerning another seat row on an American aircraft between two women. Plane diverted and women arrested.

Tenger

doolox wrote: »

....for new story concerning another seat row on an American aircraft between two women. Plane diverted and women arrested.

Isn't that 2 in a week? Bloody hell.

owenc

I've already said this before, Americans on planes are a complete disaster.

smurfjed

Its time for the airlines to sue the user and manufacturers of the seat blocker, they are breaking the law by fitting them on an aircraft without a STC......
See how long it will take for this practice to stop once people end up on court.

lambayire

I may have posted this elsewhere last year but we flew to Orlando around this time last year with Aer Lingus.

All was going well until it kicked off between 2 relatively elderly passengers (60-70) near us.

Irish passenger reclined well into the flight. Not that much mind you. American passenger behind objected.
Cabin crew intervened and all seemed fine. About 5 minutes later, The American just lost it.
The seat in front had not moved in this time.

I quote: "Move your fu*king seat up or I will kick your fu*king ass"

At this stage we weren't too far off American soil.

There then followed the finest bit of cabin crew diplomacy work that I have seen.
The chief steward, who was an absolute ringer for Stanley Tucci, said to the American that the plane
would be diverting to Boston unless he calmed down. He then disappeared off to speak to the Captain
to discuss the situation.

By the time he came back, all had calmed down for good.

As we had 3 kids with us, we waited until everyone had disembarked at Orlando before we left the plane.
I asked the steward about what had happened. He told me that he just just went off up the cabin, disappeared
out of sight and pretended to speak to the captain.

If the trouble had re-started he would have had no hesitation in advising the captain to divert to Boston.

doolox

When I was a kid the older busses had sliding windows which could open to let fresh air in. Some people would open them on colder days and others would object leading to rows. More modern busses now do not have opening windows.

Transport operators need to simplify things so that the passengers are left with no discretion in the use of their facilities. No recliners, no adjustments that can impinge on other people so that rows can be eliminated.

Alfagtamini

i flew cathay pacific last year and they had "shell seats" the back of each chair was hard plastic, so when you reclined the base of your seat slid forwards.

i found it ok but i had to put a pillow at the base of the seat as my lower back was getting sore.