Can an educational institution conform me to non-exam classes?

jldesign

Hi,

Basically I'm looking to take a test similar to the A-Levels called the SAT's, I asked my school if I could use my religion classes and art classes (I do not do Religion or Art for the leaving cert so these are non-exam, non-syllabus classes that are not prescribed for the state) and the school more or less declined my request. This school is semi-private.

I was wondering about the legality of this. Do I have to conform to these classes? Surely I should be allowed to use these classes in order to study for this test, I'm not asking to leave the school property, Just to use the library for studying purposes and to get out of the classes.

A few of the issues they raised why this was not 'doable' was:

- The library is not supervised so I could be 'messing' etc...

[What if I just sign an affidavit saying pretty much 'I will not mess' and if I do I would be liable for temporary or permanent suspension. ??? ]

- I could upset the teachers teaching the subject as its basically saying 'your subject is not worthwhile learning'......

[Come on, Its not an exam subject this is surely a Moot point? ]

Other students may want to do it for less official/plausible reasons.

[ I'm not responsible for chain 'studying' ]



Is the school really allowed conform me to their class periods? (these periods are not even prescribed by the department of education or the state exams committee)

Is there anyway around this?

Whats the whole legality of this thing?


Thanks very much for your time in advance,

Jack

GusherING

You don't have much to stand on here. You (or your parents more likely) signed up to this school and probably agreed to abide by the policies and curriculum the school offers.

While it's admirable that you want to study additional subjects, it might just not be possible for the school to facilitate your request along with the need to educate the couple of hundred other young people in the school.

Also, is this really a legal issue? The school's decision seems to be more of a management one to me. Going into the Principal with a legal argument may seem like a good idea but I'm pretty sure it would make them even more reluctant to change their mind.

jldesign

@GusherING
Thank you for taking the time to reply with a very insightful post!

While I realise I don't have much to stand for in regards to signing a school policy and signing up to a curriculum, However this being a fee paying school and them 'forcing' non-mandatory or non-prescribed subjects on me in place of a official test study period seems way too totalitarian... Surely I have some way out of this. Some legal passage that will allow me to use the facilities of rmy study periods without conforming to their 'non-exam' classes. Surely they could make an exception.

From what I've discussed with the School faculty its more than certainly 'possible' for them to oblige to me using the library to study in for my tests. It seems more like they just want to assert their authority (Well at least to my frustrated self anyway)

It's of no extra, 'hassle' or 'cost' to the school So I don't understand how it could possibly impact the management of the rest of the school.

I understand that going to Principal with a legal argument may not be the best bet, And I don't intend on implying any legal action or anything, I'm just looking for away around this, for away for me to pursue my aspirations without having to conform to this nonsense, I won't have the time if I have to do non-exam 'doss' classes like religion and art, I'm actually more worried about my academic education than these.......

jldesign

Any Ideas?

srsly78

Get kicked out of religion class, worked for me.

spurious

For insurance reasons they don't want you wandering the corridors, or in an unsupervised space.
There's also the problem that if they let you get out of x class, the others will all want to too, but the main issue is insurance.

jldesign

spurious wrote: »

For insurance reasons they don't want you wandering the corridors, or in an unsupervised space.
There's also the problem that if they let you get out of x class, the others will all want to too, but the main issue is insurance.

I'd be happy to sign an affadivitt saying that If I do do anything against policy during unsupervised periods I'm liable for anything caused by me, etc.



Theres always going to be the fact of other students 'wanting to do the same' but I have a legitimate reason, If I have to get a cert from the US Embassy or college board so be it, The school can just say to other students 'no-can-do' unless its a high profile exam.

conorh91

I have no competence in this at all. I don't know what the answer is, but even my limited knowledge would put me on the side with the OP's school's management. If the school doesn't offer SATs, I don't see that they are bound to accommodate the OP.

Nevertheless, if I were the school Principal, I would love to have a guy like this on my rolls.

He asks annoying questions and is making some very coherent, legitimate points. Some poor sod who obediently osmoses facts will probably be given the Academic Tie or whatever similar award. In the end, however, it's attitudes like the OP's that get you places in life.

Good luck in the SATs.

Daisy 55

Are you over 18?

jldesign

conorh91 wrote: »

I have no competence in this at all. I don't know what the answer is, but even my limited knowledge would put me on the side with the OP's school's management. If the school doesn't offer SATs, I don't see that they are bound to accommodate the OP.

Nevertheless, if I were the school Principal, I would love to have a guy like this on my rolls.

He asks annoying questions and is making some very coherent, legitimate points. Some poor sod who obediently osmoses facts will probably be given the Academic Tie or whatever similar award. In the end, however, it's attitudes like the OP's that get you places in life.

Good luck in the SATs.

That is possibly the best, nicest and most thoughtful reply I have ever received on Boards.ie! I salute you!

jldesign

Okay, so despite the helpful & insightful answers have I reached a bottleneck here? Is there really no other way around this then to reduce myself to begging and pleading?

I would have thought that theoretically because of it being a private school, I'm technically 'purchasing the service of the education' is there no way to bend that service?

brightspark

Not everything learnt in school should be with the aim of exam success.

Even if you don't believe in "Religion" learning about it and also Art may be more useful in your life than what you learn in your Leaving Cert exam subjects.

In fact there should be more non exam related material, to teach the skills needed in life, not just those needed to gain admission to college. If for example maths classes had taught more people about mortgages, interest rates, share dealing etc., perhaps we wouldn't have had so many people get into financial trouble.



As regards "legal" issues, as already stated you are probably bound by the school policies etc., have you read them to see what their rules say?


A final point though there is nothing stopping you studying for you SATs outside of school hours!

jldesign

brightspark wrote: »

Not everything learnt in school should be with the aim of exam success.

Even if you don't believe in "Religion" learning about it and also Art may be more useful in your life than what you learn in your Leaving Cert exam subjects.

In fact there should be more non exam related material, to teach the skills needed in life, not just those needed to gain admission to college. If for example maths classes had taught more people about mortgages, interest rates, share dealing etc., perhaps we wouldn't have had so many people get into financial trouble.



As regards "legal" issues, as already stated you are probably bound by the school policies etc., have you read them to see what their rules say?


A final point though there is nothing stopping you studying for you SATs outside of school hours!

Hmmm.. I don't have time to study outside of school hours. Fair point about religion but sort of irrelevant, I think its wrong to force students to study religion. Religion should be a vocation, Something you do on your own. Art & Rligion are more 'doss' classes in my school, Which I consider a waste of time.

I'm going to Secondary School to get a well-rounded education nd to use as a stepping stone to university, I really don't need all this 'fluffy stuff' and 'artsy' things. If I wanted to be an artist I'd be doing art. While I realise Art Theory and studies could inspire me creatively, I can manage that on my own time.....


Thanks. I do not think I am bound by anything in their policy. Its not the policy I'm worried about, Its the curriculum I signed up to...

Thank you for your help.

brightspark

jldesign wrote: »

Okay, so despite the helpful & insightful answers have I reached a bottleneck here? Is there really no other way around this then to reduce myself to begging and pleading?

I would have thought that theoretically because of it being a private school, I'm technically 'purchasing the service of the education' is there no way to bend that service?

You (or your parents) have already agreed to the terms of that service, you can't just decide to change the terms now because you don't like certain parts. Try asking your current phone company (or similar) to change its pricing plan to suit you while you are still under an existing contract.

Manach

For having no time to study after school, consider it a tip that in most professions nowadays it is the work/study spent in activities outside of regular hours that propel career progression.

Peregrinus

Legally? Yes, they can do this. Absolutely.

They don't have to do this. Your chance of getting them to accommodate you, however, goes down by about 90% if you approach this as a legal matter, talking about "what you have signed up for" and affidavits and suchlike. They will not respond well to this. Talk to them about your goals and your motivations and your learning needs; they are much more likely to respond positively to that. Maybe take this query and post it in the "Leaving Cert" board looking for suggestions as to how to approach the school in a way that maximises the chance of a favourable response.

yoke

If insurance was the clear-cut problem here, then they would simply have said that, and nothing else.
Why are they afraid of the other students following the OP's lead?
Saying "it might offend the teachers" is a stupid argument - by that logic, everyone should also be forced to study underwater dancing until leaving cert for fear of offending anyone teaching underwater dance.

OP - on a practical level, not sure if I can help you to skip the art classes, but as for religion - get a note from your parents to say that you have decided to become an atheist, they support your decision, and they no longer want you to attend religion class.

These type of people rarely listen to reason, the way to make them do what you want is by putting the ball in their court and making all the other options "require some hard thought, and some balls" - and hence unpalatable - for them.

Invoke the parents, because this type of person will not take you seriously unless you have backup. They already told you some bullsh*t about insurance, and bullsh*t about offending teachers, and they acccidentally let slip one of their actual fears - that others may follow you and the religious ethos (or, more accurately, the management decisions) of their school might be questioned.