Petrol V diesel - after 4/5 years

from_atozinc

I know people generally say if you are doing low mileage that its best to buy a petrol car - because even though the MPG will be worse, petrol dearer and more expensive to tax -- that it all balances out because petrol cars are cheaper to buy in the first place.

This may well be the case for a brand new petrol V diesel car, where the petrol car will be about 2000 Euro cheaper - however, my question applies to buying 2nd hand and a car that's about 4/5 years old and a lot of the depreciation has essentially happened already.

Is there any real savings to be made on buying a petrol car at 4/5 years old over a diesel ?

hope im making sense.

CJhaughey

from_atozinc wrote: »

Is there any real savings to be made on buying a petrol car at 4/5 years old over a diesel ?

Petrols don't have as expensive parts as Common Rail diesels.
No DPF, Dual Mass flywheels,etc etc.
Not saying that petrols are foolproof but the repair costs for service items are smaller.

Toyotafanboi

from_atozinc wrote: »

I know people generally say if you are doing low mileage that its best to buy a petrol car - because even though the MPG will be worse, petrol dearer and more expensive to tax -- that it all balances out because petrol cars are cheaper to buy in the first place.

This may well be the case for a brand new petrol V diesel car, where the petrol car will be about 2000 Euro cheaper - however, my question applies to buying 2nd hand and a car that's about 4/5 years old and a lot of the depreciation has essentially happened already.

Is there any real savings to be made on buying a petrol car at 4/5 years old over a diesel ?

hope im making sense.

yes, particularly in that age bracket. diesels still command a sizeable price premium over petrols in a lot of cases even at that age.

not ideal, but my own example (slightly older 10 year old corolla) taking the basic costs into account, before discussing the servicing costs or reliability of petrol vs diesel.

2004 corolla 1.4 petrol to buy €3500
2004 corolla 1.4 diesel to buy €5000

tax petrol €385
tax diesel €385

1.4 diesel doing 55mpg = 715 miles per tank costing €87
1.4 petrol doing 40mpg = 520 miles per tank costing €93
(based on a 60 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45)

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1788
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1216
(13 fills of diesel vs. 19 fills of petrol)

so yeah, you spend €550 less per year in fuel and make 6 trips less to the pump. but the diesel also cost €1.5k more to buy. so it will be at least 3 to 4 years before your car costs you any less than mine if you buy a diesel 'rolla :P. and that's based on a 1.4 petrol vs. 1.4 diesel, if it were a 1.4 petrol vs a 1.9/ 2.0 diesel the diesel option would be even more expensive.

so like for like the diesel is dearer. if you are doing a lot of miles you will make more of a saving in the diesel, than demonstrated above, but it's all about doing the maths really.

from_atozinc

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

yes, particularly in that age bracket. diesels still command a sizeable price premium over petrols in a lot of cases even at that age.

not ideal, but my own example (slightly older 10 year old corolla) taking the basic costs into account, before discussing the servicing costs or reliability of petrol vs diesel.

2004 corolla 1.4 petrol to buy €3500
2004 corolla 1.4 diesel to buy €5000

tax petrol €385
tax diesel €385

1.4 diesel doing 55mpg = 715 miles per tank costing €87
1.4 petrol doing 40mpg = 520 miles per tank costing €93
(based on a 60 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45)

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1788
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1216
(13 fills of diesel vs. 19 fills of petrol)

so yeah, you spend €550 less per year in fuel and make 6 trips less to the pump. but the diesel also cost €1.5k more to buy. so it will be at least 3 to 4 years before your car costs you any less than mine if you buy a diesel ro'rolla :P. and thats based on a 1.4 petrol vs. 1.4 diesel, if it were a 1.4 petrol vs a 1.9/ 2.0 diesel the diesel option would be even more expensive.

so like for like the diesel is dearer. if you are doing a lot of miles you will make more of a saving in the diesel, than demonstrated above, but it's all about doing the maths really.

Get ya, very good reply.but your right , it is all about the maths

Then I suppose on top of all the stuff you have above, you have to factor in that in this day and age with everybody diesel obsessed. a petrol car may be impossible to sell.

What about something like this


a 2009 Audi A4 2.0 tdi VERSUS a 2009 Audi A4 1.8 tfsi

or maybe it should be a 2010 1.8 tfsi as it will probably be same cost as a 2009 2.0 tdi

Toyotafanboi

what kind of mileage do you do/ are you expecting to do?

from_atozinc

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

what kind of mileage do you do/ are you expecting to do?

12,000 Miles

Alanstrainor

from_atozinc wrote: »

12,000 Miles

That's diesel territory miles imo. But depends on the car also, and the type of driving. I wouldn't shy away from a diesel at that kind of mileage.

Toyotafanboi

2009 A4 1.8 petrol to buy €13000*
2009 A4 2.0 diesel to buy €17000*
*took an average of the first page of donedeal cars in each category and rounded to the nearest €1k. could be way off reality.

tax petrol €570
tax diesel €280

2.0 diesel doing 55mpg = 787 miles per tank costing €94*
1.8 petrol doing 38mpg = 544 miles per tank costing €101*
*mpgs and tank capacity taken from parkers.co.uk
based on a 65 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1848
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1193
(13 fills of diesel vs. 18 fills of petrol)

so yeah, in tax and fuel the petrol per year costs €2414 and the diesel costs €1473 (just shy of €1k less). but the diesel costs 4k more to buy, so... yeah. how long do you plan on owning it now becomes a factor.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

That's diesel territory miles imo. But depends on the car also, and the type of driving. I wouldn't shy away from a diesel at that kind of mileage.

250 miles a week is diesel territory? jaysus. i do around 300 petrol miles a week, costs me €30-35.

BigEejit

CJhaughey wrote: »

Petrols don't have as expensive parts as Common Rail diesels.
No DPF, Dual Mass flywheels,etc etc.
Not saying that petrols are foolproof but the repair costs for service items are smaller.

I believe that most petrol cars have DMF's as well (certainly so large engined Merc's have had them for decades). Almost certainly they are different in some aspects compared to the diesel DMF's. They last a lot longer than the diesel ones due to a lot less vibration/stress.

MuppetCheck

I'd agree, 12k miles is petrol territory. I'd start to consider it upwards of 15k miles or so but for small miles it's not worth it.

Also - 60-70mpg from the Corolla?

from_atozinc

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

2009 A4 1.8 petrol to buy €13000*
2009 A4 2.0 diesel to buy €17000*
*took an average of the first page of donedeal cars in each category and rounded to the nearest €1k. could be way off reality.

tax petrol €570
tax diesel €280

2.0 diesel doing 55mpg = 787 miles per tank costing €94*
1.8 petrol doing 38mpg = 544 miles per tank costing €101*
*mpgs and tank capacity taken from parkers.co.uk
based on a 65 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1848
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1193
(13 fills of diesel vs. 18 fills of petrol)

so yeah, in tax and fuel the petrol per year costs €2414 and the diesel costs €1473 (just shy of €1k less). but the diesel costs 4k more to buy, so... yeah. how long do you plan on owning it now becomes a factor.



250 miles a week is diesel territory? jaysus. i do around 300 petrol miles a week, costs me €30-35.

Thanks very much again.

but just thinking, if one were to buy a "big engined " petrol car now (1.8tfsi) by the time it come to 2017, would there even be anyone willing to buy a petrol car at a price that wont be loosing you loads of money.

EunanMac

I wouldn't spend big money on a larger petrol car that still has a lot of depreciating left to do.

For me it's horses for courses really.

We've had diesel cars in our family since the 80's and diesel is grand if doing higher miles.

At one time diesels were very reliable and would run well on fuel bought anywhere , now with all the extra sensors, electronics, and technology they add to get petrol style acceleration, meet emission standards and DMF's and DPF's, I don't like them as much now at all. A used car is a pot luck buy sometimes, but a diesel is especially so, imho

If you're buying brand new, or a larger mid value used car, or have to do a lot of miles for work, diesel makes a lot of sense, it's a necessary evil.

Thankfully, we're doing less miles now, so our family is shifting back to used petrol cars. There is some great value, older low mileage petrol cars to be had out there, and I love the cleaner, quieter, smoother drive and simpler technology, and less to go wrong.

I suppose in a nutshell, some people love diesel cars, and some of us have to use them through necessity sometimes, depending on the circumstances.

from_atozinc

EunanMac wrote: »

I wouldn't spend big money on a larger petrol car that still has a lot of depreciating left to do.

For me it's horses for courses really.

We've had diesel cars in our family since the 80's and diesel is grand if doing higher miles.

At one time diesels were very reliable and would run well on fuel bought anywhere , now with all the extra sensors, electronics, and technology they add to get petrol style acceleration, meet emission standards and DMF's and DPF's, I don't like them as much now at all. A used car is a pot luck buy sometimes, but a diesel is especially so, imho

If you're buying brand new, or a larger mid value used car, or have to do a lot of miles for work, diesel makes a lot of sense, it's a necessary evil.

Thankfully, we're doing less miles now, so our family is shifting back to used petrol cars. There is some great value, older low mileage petrol cars to be had out there, and I love the cleaner, quieter, smoother drive and simpler technology, and less to go wrong.

I suppose in a nutshell, some people love diesel cars, and some of us have to use them through necessity sometimes, depending on the circumstances.

good input, however, don't get you on the buying brand new that its better to get diesel ?

Also, I suppose buy the time a petrol car or any car for that matter is 4/5 years old , it has a lot of its depreciating done

Toyotafanboi

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks very much again.

but just thinking, if one were to buy a "big engined " petrol car now (1.8tfsi) by the time it come to 2017, there even be anyone willing to buy a petrol car at a price that wont be loosing you loads of money.

just look at current 8 year old a4's for an example of what your potential 2009 could be worth 4 years down the line. i just took donedeal averages again on the first page of results at a glance, i didn't actually average it, just in my head. seems the going rate for a petrol is around 6k and around 7k for a diesel. so a little price premium being held with the diesel but the petrols are far from unsaleable.

just from looking there whether you look at 2006 or 2009 models, there is only a handful of petrols for sale (less than 1 donedeal page) whereas there is hundreds of diesels.

but to do the math again if you intend to keep the car for 4 years (2017)

2009 A4 1.8 petrol to buy €13000
2009 A4 2.0 diesel to buy €17000

4 years petrol driving €9656
4 years diesel driving €5892
"petrol driving" = price of combined tax and fuel price per year

4 years all in, petrol €22655
4 years all in, diesel € €22892

in other words. the same :eek:. and you might be able to ask €1k more when it comes time to sell/ trade in. so its really much of a muchness. keep it for an extra year (5 years) and the diesel will have cost you less than the petrol as an ownership experience as a whole.

but say you suffer a "diesel problem", EGR, DMF, injector or pump etc in that time, you'l be down €1k before you know it.

Toyotafanboi

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Also - 60-70mpg from the Corolla?

driving the mammys yaris at the moment, should have stated that. always north of 50mpg at 80km/h with a light foot... admittedly not 70 but certainly in the 50-60 bracket yeah.

JohnBoy26

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

yes, particularly in that age bracket. diesels still command a sizeable price premium over petrols in a lot of cases even at that age.

not ideal, but my own example (slightly older 10 year old corolla) taking the basic costs into account, before discussing the servicing costs or reliability of petrol vs diesel.

2004 corolla 1.4 petrol to buy €3500
2004 corolla 1.4 diesel to buy €5000

tax petrol €385
tax diesel €385

1.4 diesel doing 55mpg = 715 miles per tank costing €87
1.4 petrol doing 40mpg = 520 miles per tank costing €93
(based on a 60 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45)

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1788
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1216
(13 fills of diesel vs. 19 fills of petrol)

so yeah, you spend €550 less per year in fuel and make 6 trips less to the pump. but the diesel also cost €1.5k more to buy. so it will be at least 3 to 4 years before your car costs you any less than mine if you buy a diesel 'rolla :P. and that's based on a 1.4 petrol vs. 1.4 diesel, if it were a 1.4 petrol vs a 1.9/ 2.0 diesel the diesel option would be even more expensive.

so like for like the diesel is dearer. if you are doing a lot of miles you will make more of a saving in the diesel, than demonstrated above, but it's all about doing the maths really.

Will they do that much? I know they are good on fuel but I never remember mine cracking 500 miles, well over 400 miles is very achievable though.

Toyotafanboi

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Will they do that much? I know they are good on fuel but I never remember mine cracking 500 miles, well over 400 miles is very achievable though.

well that figure is assuming the tank is brimmed then ran literally dry using the full 60 litres. we as a species pretty much all fill up when it dips below a quarter ish, so in the real world yeah, 400 odd before you decide to fill up again if you get me?

JohnBoy26

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

well that figure is assuming the tank is brimmed then ran literally dry using the full 60 litres. we as a species pretty much all fill up when it dips below a quarter ish, so in the real world yeah, 400 odd before you decide to fill up again if you get me?

Ya I get what you're saying I think it's a 55 litre tank that's in the Corolla, I might be wrong on that though

EunanMac

from_atozinc wrote: »

good input, however, don't get you on the buying brand new that its better to get diesel ?

Also, I suppose buy the time a petrol car or any car for that matter is 4/5 years old , it has a lot of its depreciating done

New small cars are still grand in petrol, I suppose what I mean there is that the price differential between petrol and diesel is lot less now, so on medium and larger cars, which are generally the ones that do the higher miles, diesel is a lot more popular, and therefore should depreciate less than the equivalent petrol when you go to trade in. Also everyone wants the usually lower diesel motor tax when buying new and buying a car that's just a few years old. I suppose to summarise if you're looking for any post 08 medium or large car, the diesel is probably the one to go for, unless you're doing much lower miles, or you get petrol one cheap. You have to do a few calcs as the examples people posted show, everyone's situation is a bit different, and then add in personal preference, some people just pefer petrol over diesel and vice versa.

from_atozinc

EunanMac wrote: »

New small cars are still grand in petrol, I suppose what I mean there is that the price differential between petrol and diesel is lot less now, so on medium and larger cars, which are generally the ones that do the higher miles, diesel is a lot more popular, and therefore should depreciate less than the equivalent petrol when you go to trade in. Also everyone wants the usually lower diesel motor tax when buying new and buying a car that's just a few years old. I suppose to summarise if you're looking for any post 08 medium or large car, the diesel is probably the one to go for, unless you're doing much lower miles, or you get petrol one cheap. You have to do a few calcs as the examples people posted show, everyone's situation is a bit different, and then add in personal preference, some people just pefer petrol over diesel and vice versa.

yeah, its a tricky one alright.
each have their benefits I suppose.

but after the posts , the general feeling I think seems to be go with petrol if under 15000 miles a year.

EunanMac

from_atozinc wrote: »

yeah, its a tricky one alright.
each have their benefits I suppose.

but after the posts , the general feeling I think seems to be go with petrol if under 15000 miles a year.

Yeah, and I think between about 12-15,000 personal preference then comes more into play and you can kinda go either way.

JohnBoy26

There is no defined mileage to be in diesel territory. You could be doing 15k per annum in stop/start situations which would'nt be ideal for modern diesels and on the otherhand a diesel will happily do 5-10k of motorway miles per year without any usage issues.

faral

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

yes, particularly in that age bracket. diesels still command a sizeable price premium over petrols in a lot of cases even at that age.

not ideal, but my own example (slightly older 10 year old corolla) taking the basic costs into account, before discussing the servicing costs or reliability of petrol vs diesel.

2004 corolla 1.4 petrol to buy €3500
2004 corolla 1.4 diesel to buy €5000

tax petrol €385
tax diesel €385

1.4 diesel doing 55mpg = 715 miles per tank costing €87
1.4 petrol doing 40mpg = 520 miles per tank costing €93
(based on a 60 litre tank, petrol @ €1.55, diesel @ €1.45)

10,000 petrol miles per year = €1788
10,000 diesel miles per year = €1216
(13 fills of diesel vs. 19 fills of petrol)

so yeah, you spend €550 less per year in fuel and make 6 trips less to the pump. but the diesel also cost €1.5k more to buy. so it will be at least 3 to 4 years before your car costs you any less than mine if you buy a diesel 'rolla :P. and that's based on a 1.4 petrol vs. 1.4 diesel, if it were a 1.4 petrol vs a 1.9/ 2.0 diesel the diesel option would be even more expensive.

so like for like the diesel is dearer. if you are doing a lot of miles you will make more of a saving in the diesel, than demonstrated above, but it's all about doing the maths really.

man i really like ur logic!good points! ive got same problem with buying a second car for my wife, she is doing circa 11-12k miles and I said to her-petrol my dear, we will change a car in 2-3 years and I do prefer to have a hassle free motoring rather that "savings" with diesel as modern diesel are pigs to repair.

from_atozinc

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

There is no defined mileage to be in diesel territory. You could be doing 15k per annum in stop/start situations which would'nt be ideal for modern diesels and on the otherhand a diesel will happily do 5-10k of motorway miles per year without any usage issues.

yeah, good point, all boils down to what kind of journeys you are doing.

crisco10

Okay; quick question carrying on from this conversation....I seem to be floating around this 15k a year threshold..

Background
Got an 06 1.6 Petrol Astra a few years ago because my mileage was quite low (didn't move the car Mon-Fri) and it was quite cheap.

But now my mileage has increased, the playing field has changed with work. Commute about 500km a week now (mainly motorway with a bit of traffic at Newlands Cross). Costs me about €65/wk on petrol.

Question
Should I be looking at switching cars to something a little less thirsty?
If so, what are decent options in the c€5k range...obviously would be willing to trade in the Astra too??

fmcg_scribe

crisco10 wrote: »

Okay; quick question carrying on from this conversation....I seem to be floating around this 15k a year threshold..

Background
Got an 06 1.6 Petrol Astra a few years ago because my mileage was quite low (didn't move the car Mon-Fri) and it was quite cheap.

But now my mileage has increased, the playing field has changed with work. Commute about 500km a week now (mainly motorway with a bit of traffic at Newlands Cross). Costs me about €65/wk on petrol.

Question
Should I be looking at switching cars to something a little less thirsty?
If so, what are decent options in the c€5k range...obviously would be willing to trade in the Astra too??

Tricky. In terms of annual mileage, you're definitely on the threshold where diesel starts to make sense. Bearing in mind that your current car is nine years old, I imagine that a more recent version of your car might be more fuel efficient.

To that extent, you might have three options:
- A newer version of your current car.
- A different petrol car.
- A diesel car.

To help with your mpg research, see http://www.whatcar.com/truempg/my-true-mpg

crisco10

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Tricky. In terms of annual mileage, you're definitely on the threshold where diesel starts to make sense. Bearing in mind that your current car is nine years old, I imagine that a more recent version of your car might be more fuel efficient.

To that extent, you might have three options:
- A newer version of your current car.
- A different petrol car.
- A diesel car.

To help with your mpg research, see http://www.whatcar.com/truempg/my-true-mpg

Thanks I'll have a look. I notice there was no 4th option - keep the car!!:D

I'm not a big fan of buying cars, I just get so anxious that I will get a lemon so am hesitant to change when I know what I have isn't a disaster!

fmcg_scribe

EunanMac wrote: »

New small cars are still grand in petrol, I suppose what I mean there is that the price differential between petrol and diesel is lot less now, so on medium and larger cars, which are generally the ones that do the higher miles, diesel is a lot more popular, and therefore should depreciate less than the equivalent petrol when you go to trade in. Also everyone wants the usually lower diesel motor tax when buying new and buying a car that's just a few years old. I suppose to summarise if you're looking for any post 08 medium or large car, the diesel is probably the one to go for, unless you're doing much lower miles, or you get petrol one cheap. You have to do a few calcs as the examples people posted show, everyone's situation is a bit different, and then add in personal preference, some people just pefer petrol over diesel and vice versa.

Indeed. At the moment, in the UK and Ireland at least, large engine petrol cars are a difficult sell. However, a luxury/premium car with a diesel engine should hold its value much better than, say, a V8 petrol version of the same car.

That said, depending on the size and brand of car that someone wants to buy, there's no point buying a diesel car to soften depreciation costs if not doing at least 15,000 miles per year and doing doing long journeys on a regular basis.

Old diesel

crisco10 wrote: »

Okay; quick question carrying on from this conversation....I seem to be floating around this 15k a year threshold..

Background
Got an 06 1.6 Petrol Astra a few years ago because my mileage was quite low (didn't move the car Mon-Fri) and it was quite cheap.

But now my mileage has increased, the playing field has changed with work. Commute about 500km a week now (mainly motorway with a bit of traffic at Newlands Cross). Costs me about €65/wk on petrol.

Question
Should I be looking at switching cars to something a little less thirsty?
If so, what are decent options in the c€5k range...obviously would be willing to trade in the Astra too??

65 euro a week is a pain obviously - but do note that the diesel will be costing money too. SOME people seem to think of these things as if the diesel was going to cost zero.

2.0 diesel Mk 2 Avensis is probably as good an option as any tbh if the size of the Avensis isn't too big - yes they haven't the nicest interior in the world - but Opel interiors aren't exactly style icons either.

They are however comfortable - and seem to be able to clock up higher miles better then most modern diesels.

Key thing to watch for on the Avensis is the previous ownership history - its very common for them to be used for taxis (something that in itself demonstrates how reliable they can be imo).

IF you avoid anything with BXE in the engine code - VWs 1.9 tdi is generally fairly good - Octavia is well worth consideration if you don't mind the fact that refinement isn't the best.

One thing of note though is that early models of the Passat that was launched in late 05/early 06 did give a lot of issues - electric handbrake, some issue with the steering coloumn and other bits.

A lot of of that may have been sorted on those cars now - but definitely something to be aware off.

Idbatterim

bear in mind if borrowing the money the extra cost of interest on the diesel premium, plus the cost of potential diesel problems, one big one and it could write off the saving for a year at least depending on mileage. But the biggest one for me, its a diesel!

dodzy

crisco10 wrote: »

(mainly motorway with a bit of traffic at Newlands Cross)

Understatement of the year