Teachers on personal leave asking for cover from colleagues - Query

Peter Flynt

Hi all.

So the academic year at second level has well and truly begun.

On a personal basis I have 33 forty minute periods and five assigned S&S periods. This leaves four periods per week whereby I know for certain I am not in class.

I've noticed a teacher in my school needs personal leave next week for one day and, as is traditional in my school, they have been asked to seek the support of other colleagues who are free (like me in one of my four classes) to cover for her for that day.

In other words their classes are not to be covered under S&S.

Now this was always fine in the past. . but it got me thinking:

"Hang on - I'd say well over €120,000 is not being paid to teachers in my school alone to cover S&S under Haddington Road.. . Why should teachers be seeking others to do their classes for personal leave? Shouldn't management now be covering this under the free labour scheme known as S&S?"

Do you agree?

solerina

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Hi all.

So the academic year at second level has well and truly begun.

On a personal basis I have 33 forty minute periods and five assigned S&S periods. This leaves four periods per week whereby I know for certain I am not in class.

I've noticed a teacher in my school needs personal leave next week for one day and, as is traditional in my school, they have been asked to seek the support of other colleagues who are free (like me in one of my four classes) to cover for her for that day.

In other words their classes are not to be covered under S&S.

Now this was always fine in the past. . but it got me thinking:

"Hang on - I'd say well over €120,000 is not being paid to teachers in my school alone to cover S&S under Haddington Road.. . Why should teachers be seeking others to do their classes for personal leave? Shouldn't management now be covering this under the free labour scheme known as S&S?"

Do you agree?

Do I agree, In theory, yes I would love if this happened, in practise though I cant see them allowing that in my school anyway, a pity though as it would work reasonably well.

lennyloulou

Def in theory it would be a perfect solution. However the day of asking for a personal day and getting all classes covered are a thing of the past. Teachers have few free periods and are unable or do not want to take on more cover no matter whose sister's wedding it is. Exhaustion will just prevent teachers from agreeing !
I am back a week tomorrow- the shock that filtered through the staff when the realisation of their S&S hours being added on was so depressing!

Millem

I think the teacher would find it easier to just taking a (precious) uncertified sick day

rainbowtrout

In my experience we were always asked to find our own cover. When S&S was paid work it was not used to cover people going off to weddings etc and rightly so.

If people want classes covered now they will find it much harder with so many free classes being assigned to S&S. People will also be far lessing willing to give up a free class if they could be caught for S&S on top of that during any given week. Particularly when the school year is in full swing and students are heading off to football matches, open days etc.

A teacher in my school is away tomorrow for something and asked me if I would cover a class for her. I only have one free class tomorrow and it is one of my S&S assigned ones, so I had to say no.

TheDriver

Schools get about the same amount of cover as previous years to cover uncertified and school business. This is between the WTE x 37 or now 43hours coupled with reduction in CL49 allocations. Personal days are unfortunately a case of self cover. Otherwise people would treat them as extra uncertified entitlements.

acequion

Interesting word choice by various posters. OP calls S&S a "free labour scheme". Another poster implies the danger of teachers trying to have "extra uncertified entitlements"

Personally I agree with the OP. Entitlements along with pay and general conditions have dwindled to a minimum and the ever long suffering teacher is the one paying the price.

Collegues were always eager to help each other out,something which fostered good will and collegiality.They can no longer afford the time. A very sad but understandable state of affairs.

We've been fleeced and screwed over the last few years. A fact that should neither be forgiven nor forgotten.

Peter Flynt

In the past it could not be justified that S&S could be used to enable a teacher to take a personal day away from school as taxpayers money was used to fund the S&S scheme.

This is no longer the case and teachers are now doing the work for free with the state taking 125 million euros from the pockets of teachers.

Furthermore teachers simply do not have the time to give to their colleagues as they have virtually no free and available time.

Consequently staff should not cover for their colleagues when asked and let management assign teachers off the S&S roster instead.

The time has long since passed for teachers to stop being nice and to continue doing stuff for free.

seavill

I think saying staff should not do it is wrong. It's a personal choice.

Last year it happened several times sometimes like above my only free class was my s&s class so couldn't do it. If I was free I would help as most likely one day I might be looking for it myself.

Saying just refuse and let management cover it is not an option under the current system in my opinion. Mananegent will refuse under the rules so that means the person can't go unless they take unpaid leave or take a sick day. We don't have many sick days to play with under new rules and personally I would much rather save them just in case I genuinely need them. The other option unpaid leave I would rather give one class once in a blue moon to help a friend out rather than that.

Just my way of looking at it but from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, management certainly can say no to giving cover out if s&s for personal leave?

evolving_doors

Peter Flynt wrote: »

In the past it could not be justified that S&S could be used to enable a teacher to take a personal day away from school as taxpayers money was used to fund the S&S scheme.

This is no longer the case and teachers are now doing the work for free with the state taking 125 million euros from the pockets of teachers.

Furthermore teachers simply do not have the time to give to their colleagues as they have virtually no free and available time.

Consequently staff should not cover for their colleagues when asked and let management assign teachers off the S&S roster instead.

The time has long since passed for teachers to stop being nice and to continue doing stuff for free.

Definitely agree, although I think if you say no and a colleague finds out you are free then it might come back to bite ya in the a55 later. I generally like to 'front load my favour bank' by doing as much personal leave cover as possible as soon as possible (4 classes next week PL!!). When the time comes around I know who to ask first..

RealJohn

I'm inclined to say yes when colleagues ask me because it's generally a favour for a friend in my case. As far as I know, it was never a case where this would be paid so I don't think refusing to do it in some sort of stand against the government does any good and only served to make my colleagues' lives harder and more stressful.

There are one or two of my colleagues I might say no to but that's because of the attitudes of those teachers, not because of anything else. I'd also say no if I had a particularly heavy day and really wanted to keep my free class (and I'd usually explain this to them and tell them that I'd still do it if they're stuck).

I don't think refusing to help your colleagues out, unless they're taking advantage of weak management and doing it several times a year, does you any favours and the government will take no notice of it either way.

endakenny

lennyloulou wrote: »

Def in theory it would be a perfect solution. However the day of asking for a personal day and getting all classes covered are a thing of the past. Teachers have few free periods and are unable or do not want to take on more cover no matter whose sister's wedding it is. Exhaustion will just prevent teachers from agreeing !
I am back a week tomorrow- the shock that filtered through the staff when the realisation of their S&S hours being added on was so depressing!

Surely, if engaged couples have relatives who are teachers and who they invite to their weddings, they'll arrange to have the weddings at weekends or on bank holidays or school holidays so that the relatives will be able to go to the weddings without getting personal leave.

RealJohn

endakenny wrote: »

Surely, if engaged couples have relatives who are teachers and who they invite to their weddings, they'll arrange to have the weddings at weekends or on bank holidays or school holidays so that the relatives will be able to go to the weddings without getting personal leave.

I would imagine that money rather than convenience is likely to be the driving factor. If it's going to cost them an extra couple of thousand euros to make life easier for their teacher relative, I doubt they'd do it, not to mention that I would think a lot just don't think of it or don't realise how much trouble it could be for the teacher to get time off during term.

endakenny

RealJohn wrote: »

I would imagine that money rather than convenience is likely to be the driving factor. If it's going to cost them an extra couple of thousand euros to make life easier for their teacher relative, I doubt they'd do it, not to mention that I would think a lot just don't think of it or don't realise how much trouble it could be for the teacher to get time off during term.

I think they'd do it if the relative who is a teacher is a sibling or a parent. You cannot put a price on averting bad feeling.

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

In the past it could not be justified that S&S could be used to enable a teacher to take a personal day away from school as taxpayers money was used to fund the S&S scheme.

This is no longer the case and teachers are now doing the work for free with the state taking 125 million euros from the pockets of teachers.

Furthermore teachers simply do not have the time to give to their colleagues as they have virtually no free and available time.

Consequently staff should not cover for their colleagues when asked and let management assign teachers off the S&S roster instead.

The time has long since passed for teachers to stop being nice and to continue doing stuff for free.

If find it hard to believe that a teacher would abuse colleagues' kindness.

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

I think they'd do it if the relative who is a teacher is a sibling or a parent. You cannot put a price on averting bad feeling.

Well its neither here nor there as regards the topic being discussed...stuff happens during the week..personal days are needed, thats been established.

acequion

Personally I wouldn't dream of asking anyone to cover for me and I couldn't stand the hassle and embarrassment of going around the staff trying to get up to 8 classes covered. I know our sick days are now precious,but for a once in a blue moon personal day,it's the simplest option.

rainbowtrout

endakenny wrote: »

Surely, if engaged couples have relatives who are teachers and who they invite to their weddings, they'll arrange to have the weddings at weekends or on bank holidays or school holidays so that the relatives will be able to go to the weddings without getting personal leave.

Not necessarily. One relation being a teacher isn't going to be a good enough reason to shift the date. A couple mightn't be able to get the Saturday they want or if could cost considerably more than the Friday.

One of the teachers I work with is bridesmaid for her sister in 2-3 weeks time. It's on a Friday so she'll have to go round and ask for cover

Moody_mona

This is one thing that annoys me about non substitute cover days in primary ( I'm not phrasing that correctly, someone might help me)

I had to find cover for my classes for my graduation a few years ago. My mother, a primary teacher, was entitled to the day off for family something or other, I'm not sure of the name, and her class was split.

The only way I can see a similar thing working for us, is if along with the s&s, you nominated a period you'd cover for personal leave if it arose. Then people wouldn't have to go around asking, but it'd need to be a big staff, and no one wants to commit to more classes.

If the rest of you have a small class, and you're looking for cover can you get a teacher who is teaching but has a small group to take the two together, or does the teacher has to be free?

endakenny

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not necessarily. One relation being a teacher isn't going to be a good enough reason to shift the date. A couple mightn't be able to get the Saturday they want or if could cost considerably more than the Friday.

One of the teachers I work with is bridesmaid for her sister in 2-3 weeks time. It's on a Friday so she'll have to go round and ask for cover

Surely, her colleagues would understand and she'd probably do the same for them if it was the other way around.

There probably are not as many teachers looking for substitutes for their classes as there used to be because fewer teachers are doing extra-curricular activities. There would have to be a flu epidemic for their to be so many teachers absent on the day of the wedding of your colleague's sister.

rainbowtrout

endakenny wrote: »

Surely, her colleagues would understand and she'd probably do the same for them if it was the other way around.

There probably are not as many teachers looking for substitutes for their classes as there used to be because fewer teachers are doing extra-curricular activities. There would have to be a flu epidemic for their to be so many teachers absent on the day of the wedding of your colleague's sister.

No, she won't have any problems getting cover, I'll cover a class for her if I'm free and she would do it for me, but it's getting harder with so many classes given over to S&S and like everything else, there are some teachers who take advantage, the type who would never do you a favour - I don't mean covering classes, it could be something smaller but would have no problem asking you to cover a class and they would have checked your timetable to see when you were free before asking.

Millem

acequion wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't dream of asking anyone to cover for me and I couldn't stand the hassle and embarrassment of going around the staff trying to get up to 8 classes covered. I know our sick days are now precious,but for a once in a blue moon personal day,it's the simplest option.

I agree I have yet to have 3 uncertified in a year. We had to give up 6 periods for s and s and can be asked to cover 3. I have last class off 2 days so only then have 2 other periods. I would say anyone wanting to take the wedding leave will struggle to get classes covered

solerina

Millem wrote: »

I agree I have yet to have 3 uncertified in a year. We had to give up 6 periods for s and s and can be asked to cover 3. I have last class off 2 days so only then have 2 other periods. I would say anyone wanting to take the wedding leave will struggle to get classes covered

We have to give up 5 not 6...so if they have you down for 6 get that changed asap...5 is bad enough !!

Millem

solerina wrote: »

We have to give up 5 not 6...so if they have you down for 6 get that changed asap...5 is bad enough !!

Our school is doing a different thing where you give 6 but you pick all 6 yourself.

aratsarse101

solerina wrote: »

We have to give up 5 not 6...so if they have you down for 6 get that changed asap...5 is bad enough !!

sorry I misread what you were doing. my fault

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

Our school is doing a different thing where you give 6 but you pick all 6 yourself.

Is that allowed now? The circular is really specific!

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is that allowed now? The circular is really specific!

Yes we were told it was allowed, because we have a huge staff and because we have the correct number on cover at each time. We gave 6 but actually I think we are only available for 5. I will know next week. A lot of our staff only had 9 periods not 10. Some people (like me) were told that they needed to change one or two of the periods offered. We were given a sheet and told to keep track of how many we are called for (by our union).

Two of my friends' schools are doing the same.

Peter Flynt

Millem wrote: »

Yes we were told it was allowed, because we have a huge staff and because we have the correct number on cover at each time. We gave 6 but actually I think we are only available for 5. I will know next week. A lot of our staff only had 9 periods not 10. Some people (like me) were told that they needed to change one of the periods offered. We were given a sheet and told to keep track of how many we are called for (by our union).

Two of my friends' schools are doing the same.

There is no provision in the circular for schools to do their own thing.

They must abide by the circular.

It is not optional.

Millem

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There is no provision in the circular for schools to do their own thing.

They must abide by the circular.

It is not optional.

It is not pretty much the same thing though? We give our timetable with 6 s and s periods, say 5 are picked, if they don't work they pick from any of the 9 or 10? I had to change two of my periods. So really you could say I numbered 1-8

rainbowtrout

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There is no provision in the circular for schools to do their own thing.

They must abide by the circular.

It is not optional.

I don't see a massive problem with what was done in Millem's school. Teachers chose 6 class periods instead of 10. If her school is that big, then it is far more likely that there will be teachers to cover each class period. They could have easily told them to write down 1-10 and still given them all 5 S&S periods from their top 6.

TheDriver

Plus avoided situation of managements having to fill spots at their discretion after.....

Millem

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't see a massive problem with what was done in Millem's school. Teachers chose 6 class periods instead of 10. If her school is that big, then it is far more likely that there will be teachers to cover each class period. They could have easily told them to write down 1-10 and still given them all 5 S&S periods from their top 6.

Oh gosh yes, the vice p said every period has to have a certain number of teachers on (according to dept figures). I think they said 8 teachers on each period for our school??? (Although maybe I may have misheard that). Some teachers only had 9 free periods on time table. I know I had to change 2 periods and another colleague had to change to give last class on a Friday.
For the supervising we just did wrote down two 20 mins slots.

Kalimera

Schools can adopt their own system once there is 100% agreement. Even one dissenting voice means that the "standardised" system must be used as per circular.

Millem

Kalimera wrote: »

Schools can adopt their own system once there is 100% agreement. Even one dissenting voice means that the "standardised" system must be used as per circular.

We had to vote

Kalimera

If even one teacher does not agree then it must revert to the method laid out in circular.

aratsarse101

Kalimera wrote: »

Schools can adopt their own system once there is 100% agreement.

No they can't. Where on the circular does it say this?

Millem

aratsarse101 wrote: »

No they can't. Where on the circular does it say this?

Tbh I don't see any difference what we did, we may as well of numbered 1-10

Kalimera

aratsarse101 wrote: »

No they can't. Where on the circular does it say this?

The no. of periods/ hours etc is set by circular. The method of allocation/selection of those periods is determined by a method agreed by unions and the Accs & JMB management bodies.