How to avoid Irish

cob1

I don't have kids but if I did I would prefer that they were not forced to learn Irish in primary and secondary school. If the situation is as it was when I was in school doing Irish at the LC would be mandatory assuming they wanted to go to university. If they wanted to learn Irish themselves that would be fine, I just think if a language is to be made mandatory for them it should be a European language, or one that might allow them speak with their grandparents if their mother happened to be not Irish.

So what needs to be done in order to get around the compulsion to learn Irish in the education system here? And without sabotaging their ability to go to University in Ireland.

Rather than this being a debate on whether I am right or wrong I'm really only interested in what the rules are and how this can be done.

Do you need to send your kids to schools that teach different curriculums, I believe there are ones that teach German, French and British curriculums? Can they then sit the exams of these countries and still apply for Irish universities?

Is the only option to leave the country for a number of years? If so how many years and how does this work? Can you then just sit the LC and be exempt from Irish when applying for Uni. I myself was out of the country for 2 years as a child, but I still did Irish when I returned. I can't remember how this worked or how I made up the 2 missed years.

alaskayoung

As far as I know, a child will only be exempt from learning Irish either if they are 11 or older when they move to Ireland, have a learning disability or do not speak English when they move here.

I was born in the US and lived there for years but was under 11 when I moved here so I did Irish at school like everyone else.

Learning Irish at school isn't that that big of a deal and I certainly wouldn't spend years living abroad simply to get them exempt from it. Perhaps your priorities will change when you actually have children

spurious

You will guarantee your children will hate Irish if you let them hear your feelings on the matter.

It's not that difficult a language to learn. If you really want them to not learn Irish you could move to another country.

cob1

I'm really only looking for practical actions on how this could be done, rather than advice on why I should not do it or how Irish is easy to learn/a great asset.

Leaving the country/Not having children are the 2 options I really do consider. Are there more?

What about the schools in Ireland that teach foreign curriculums?

If you leave the country for 2 years with kids >11 years old and then return what is the situation? What's the process/who regulates it or verifies it?

DublinArnie

Learning a new language for a kid is invaluable. As they're young, and try to absorb all these words and phrases and grammar structure at primary school - they're developing and enhancing certain skills that make learning languages easier.

Why would you want to stunt the growth of these skills? By not allowing your kid to be taught irish at an early age.

cob1

DublinArnie wrote: »

Learning a new language for a kid is invaluable. As they're young, and try to absorb all these words and phrases and grammar structure at primary school - they're developing and enhancing certain skills that make learning languages easier.

Why would you want to stunt the growth of these skills? By not allowing your kid to be taught irish at an early age.

Agreed that's why I think they should spend their time learning the language that their grandparents speak and the rest of the time running around playing football, climbing trees etc. If I have kids with someone from the Gaeltacht with Irish speaking grandparents then I guess the Irish system will suit me perfectly (this is not likely at the moment though)

But again as I've said in every post I'm not looking for advice or a debate on why learning Irish is great, just practical ways to avoid it for my (potential) children. Feel free to raise your children whatever way you choose.

So far leaving the country has been the only suggestion, that's one I had already though.

MathsManiac

You're suggesting going to fairly extreme measures to circumvent a pretty minor aspect of education policy in the country, and one that many people agree with, so you shouldn't be surprised if some of the responses you get are to the effect that you might consider changing your approach to it.

All sorts of social, educational, economic and other policies are set out by a government on behalf of the people who elect them. Like any citizen, if you disagree with these policies, you can seek to change them by debate, argument, lobbying, voting, etc. But you are also expected to abide by them in the meantime.

No education system is perfect and, no matter where you go, there will be aspects of it that you don't like. Is this state's requirement that your child be exposed - for a fairly small proportion of his/her time - to an education in the native language and culture of the country so odious to you as to trump all other aspects of the education system and move abroad?

Anyway, to answer your questions:
No, moving abroad for 2 years after they are 11 will not do the trick for you. They have to have lived abroad for at least three years, (and be returning aged over 11).
Alternatively, you could try to have children who are so severely intellectually challenged that they have difficulty mastering the basic skills of their mother tongue. That would get you off the hook.

Here is the Department's information about the exemption from Irish, including links to the two circulars that set out the criteria in detail at both primary and post-primary level:
http://www.education.ie/en/Parents/Information/Irish-Exemption/

The fact that students have to study Irish does not mean they have to do particularly well in it, or indeed sit any exam in it. Whether or not you can go to university in Ireland without having studied Irish or passed an exam in it is a matter for the individual universities themselves.

For example, the NUI criteria for exemption from Irish are broader than the Department's. Anyone born outside the 26 counties is exempted from the NUI Irish requirement. So, when your beloved wife starts having contractions, you could shove her in the car, head up the M1 and make sure she doesn't push till you hit the border. Your sprogs would still have to sit through Irish classes, but could sneer and scoff their way through them as effectively as you can train them to, secure in the knowledge that they can have a lie-in on the morning of the LC Irish exam without compromising their applications to these colleges. TCD doesn't have an Irish language requirement - you just need English and any other language, so it's not an issue there.

Regarding "foreign curriculums", there's not much joy for you here until after Junior Cert level (or, more specifically, age 16). For the duration of compulsory schooling (up to 16) all schools are required provide a programme of study in Irish for all students who don't meet the Department's exemption criteria.

For senior cycle, it's a different story. A school that's not receiving any funding from the Department (such as, for example, the Institute of Education) does not have to provide Irish to all students, so if you had your NUI exemption in the bag, you could do a 2-year LC programme there without having to do Irish. other options might include doing the IB, which is available in St Andrew's College, and maybe elsewhere. I'm not entirely certain, but the description of the IB programme on that school's website suggests that you don't have to do Irish if you follow that route.

(By the way, you say: "If they wanted to learn Irish themselves, that would be fine." When exactly do you think children should be given such a curricular choice? On entry to primary school?)

thesimpsons

and maybe they should never learn history either cos its just a waste learning about dead and forgotten things, same for geography cos they'll never going to care about rocks and rivers and as for art, well its just a crackpot subject for arty farty types !!!!!

Is it not better that they learn all kinds of different subjects to foster a love of learning, broadening the brain while giving them as wide an education as possible. maybe your kids would hate you for not giving them the opportunity to learn a subject while young and easy to absorb it rather than fostering your thoughts on them.

you don't even have kids .... yet...... I don't understand why are you wasting time worrying about what might/might not happen in at least 5 yrs time. so much can change in a person's life in 5 yrs.

do you really think it practical solution to move country just to avoid learning one subject out of the multitude of subjects taught in primary or secondary - is it also practical to then move those (potential) children back to Ireland when you feel like it again to get into an Irish university - if they then (potentially) qualified for entry.

cob1

Thanks for that MathsManiac, it is some interesting information. Like you say it is really the entrance conditions of the universities that dictate Irish being mandatory. You could always scoff your way through the mandatory classes, my experience is that by the stage of secondary school most students scoff and doss through the Irish class already to the detriment of the people who are actually interested in the language. I never understand why those with an interest in the language engineered a situation where this is inevitable and are happy for it to continue as it is.

So for families with one non-Irish parent then having the birth outside of Ireland would be beneficial at least when it comes to the conditions of university application.

It's interesting that the circular documents put the awarding of exemption on the schools. I wonder if there are certain "sympathetic" schools that have a high number exemptions? It seems that your child could avoid Irish if your school and a psychologist can agree that your child meets the following:

"who function intellectually at average or above average level but have a Specific Learning Disability of such a degree of severity that they fail to achieve expected levels of attainment in basic language skills in the mother tongue"

This would seem to be a loophole that could be exploited by the privileged.

MathsManiac wrote: »

(By the way, you say: "If they wanted to learn Irish themselves, that would be fine." When exactly do you think children should be given such a curricular choice? On entry to primary school?)

I think that learning a non-native language is good and should be done at an early age. I just don't see why it should be Irish by compulsion. A selection could be offered and the parents could chose a language or a school based on their circumstances. Lots of people would still chose Irish and these classes would then be free from scoffers. We are surely in the minority in our system compared to England, Germany, France etc.we could do things the way they are done in those countries. But I don't want to debate this here, I'm just interested in ways to work around the system as it is.

clolor14

You could send your children to an Irish-speaking school, which ensures that they have a high standard of Irish and will not struggle with the subject!

randylonghorn

cob1 wrote: »

But I don't want to debate this here, I'm just interested in ways to work around the system as it is.

And MathsManiac and others have covered all the exceptions and "work arounds" which exist, and given that you don't want a debate (in which at least you are probably wise, given that it's an issue which always seems to attract the extremists on both sides) there really isn't anything to add to this thread or any point in leaving it open when that is exactly what will happen.