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Landlord hasn't signed lease yet, can I leave?

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  • 25-08-2014 7:55pm
    #1
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭


    Hi, I recently moved into an apartment, gave the letting agent the deposit and half a months rent to bring me up to the end of this month, and signed the lease (both copies, one for the landlord one for myself), but since then it has become to clear to me that I cannot stay here for various reasons, mainly money though, as I've been notified earlier today that my hours in work are being reduced in a months time. On friday I asked the letting agent about my copy of the lease and he told me it hasnt been signed by the landlord yet, does this mean that there is no lease to break yet? Or would I still have to give notice and lose my deposit?


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    #2
    salamanca22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭salamanca22


    JimmyRussell wrote: »
    Hi, I recently moved into an apartment, gave the letting agent the deposit and half a months rent to bring me up to the end of this month, and signed the lease (both copies, one for the landlord one for myself), but since then it has become to clear to me that I cannot stay here for various reasons, mainly money though, as I've been notified earlier today that my hours in work are being reduced in a months time. On friday I asked the letting agent about my copy of the lease and he told me it hasnt been signed by the landlord yet, does this mean that there is no lease to break yet? Or would I still have to give notice and lose my deposit?

    I would assume you have a verbal contract and as you have already signed the written one and it is just a matter of the landlord signing it too then what is stopping him signing it after you tell him of your intentions.


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    #3
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    salamanca22 wrote: »
    I would assume you have a verbal contract and as you have already signed the written one and it is just a matter of the landlord signing it too then what is stopping him signing it after you tell him of your intentions.

    well I dont understand either why the landlord hasnt been given the lease to sign yet and if it's a case of not being able to leave because of that do I have grounds due to the fact that I have no heating? i.e. the landlord controls the heating not me, and I cannot get an electricity account in my own name I must use a card system that charges at a higher rate than normal (this is to offset the landlord taking the hit on the vat apparently). Beyond that the only other option would be for me to request that I can assign the lease to someone else but how would I go about doing that? do I advertise the apartment myself?


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    #4
    salamanca22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭salamanca22


    JimmyRussell wrote: »
    well I dont understand either why the landlord hasnt been given the lease to sign yet and if it's a case of not being able to leave because of that do I have grounds due to the fact that I have no heating? i.e. the landlord controls the heating not me, and I cannot get an electricity account in my own name I must use a card system that charges at a higher rate than normal (this is to offset the landlord taking the hit on the vat apparently). Beyond that the only other option would be for me to request that I can assign the lease to someone else but how would I go about doing that? do I advertise the apartment myself?

    The heating will have to be fixed ASAP and as regards the electric were you told about the arrangement before you moved in?


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    #5
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    salamanca22 wrote: »
    The heating will have to be fixed ASAP and as regards the electric were you told about the arrangement before you moved in?

    Yes I was told about the electricity situation but not about the rate.


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    #6
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Jimmy you have to take some responsibility here, most people aren't quoted the rate from any utility company in a lease agreement or a mortgage agreement. It's public knowledge that pre-pay meters are more expensive than post pay billing, you have to do a bit of research of your own when taking on a property.


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    #7
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Jimmy you have to take some responsibility here, most people aren't quoted the rate from any utility company in a lease agreement or a mortgage agreement. It's public knowledge that pre-pay meters are more expensive than post pay billing, you have to do a bit of research of your own when taking on a property.

    I understand and if that was the only issue I'd be ok with it but there are other circumstances I just want to now what options I have if any.


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    #8
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The heating and electricity are reasons to break the lease if not addressed immediately(work starting this week). You must have control of the heating and it would appear that the Landlord is somehow charging a premium on the electricity charges.


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    #9
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The heating and electricity are reasons to break the lease if not addressed immediately(work starting this week). You must have control of the heating and it would appear that the Landlord is somehow charging a premium on the electricity charges.

    Why is the use of a pre-pay meter a reason to break the lease?

    Jimmy just ask the landlord can you reassign the lease.


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    #10
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Why is the use of a pre-pay meter a reason to break the lease?

    Jimmy just ask the landlord can you reassign the lease.

    If I reassign the lease how do I go about finding someone to assign it to? do I advertise myself on daft or myhome?


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    #11
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    JimmyRussell wrote: »
    If I reassign the lease how do I go about finding someone to assign it to? do I advertise myself on daft or myhome?

    Yes, you must take the hit on fees for re-advertisement as you are the one seeking to break the contract. Make sure you ask the landlord first, they may not be pleased to find their property back up on Daft without their knowledge.


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    #12
    tenifan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 523 ✭✭✭tenifan


    salamanca22 wrote: »
    I would assume you have a verbal contract and as you have already signed the written one and it is just a matter of the landlord signing it too then what is stopping him signing it after you tell him of your intentions.

    Not true (bit in bold)

    You can possibly withdraw from the lease if you can prove your landlord hasn't signed it yet. I say possibly because I'm not 100% sure. (what would happen if he signed it anyway, or told you he already signed it, etc)


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    #13
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    tenifan wrote: »
    Not true (bit in bold)

    You can possibly withdraw from the lease if you can prove your landlord hasn't signed it yet. I say possibly because I'm not 100% sure. (what would happen if he signed it anyway, or told you he already signed it, etc)

    I'm 100% sure a contract exists!
    The fact that a verbal agreement exists, one party has executed a contract and rent has been paid/received is enough to prove a contract exists.


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    #14
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    tenifan wrote: »
    Not true (bit in bold)

    You can possibly withdraw from the lease if you can prove your landlord hasn't signed it yet. I say possibly because I'm not 100% sure. (what would happen if he signed it anyway, or told you he already signed it, etc)

    A contract does not need to be in writing. For example, by paying a deposit and accepting the keys, the OP has entered into a verbal agreement to rent the property.


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    #15
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    OP, what do you mean by "landlord controls the heating"?, I suspect you mean that the apartment has storage heating (common in apartments) and the landlord pre set the times the heaters come on?

    Prepay electricity is more expensive than bill pay but it is becoming more popular with tenants. You use only what you pay for, it is easier to budget for with no surprisingly high bills received at peak times during the year, when you are away for extended periods the electricity use can be effectively turned down to zero, smaller deposit needed than bill pay and it allows for a cleaner "break" at the end of the lease. If you have storage heaters, these can help to reduce electricity costs associated with heating if used correctly, they store energy at the cheapest (night) time for use during the day. You can set the controls so that it heats your apartment when you most want it, early morning/early evening.

    OP, you can change from prepay to bill pay but you will probably have to give utility company a hefty deposit which by the sounds of things is not an option and considering you are now trying to leave, pre pay is ideal. You can google the model of heater in your apartment and read how to adjust settings so you get heat when you want it. Neither is a basis for ending your tenancy.


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    #16
    Gasherbraun
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭Gasherbraun


    Minimum standards stipulates that a tenant should have control of the rented properties heating system. Hard to be sure without all the detail but it sounds as if the minimum standard is not being met.

    As stated by Arbiter of Good Taste an exchange of money for keys has occurred so a tenancy has been created irrespective of any lease being signed. The landlord could decide never to sign the lease but you will still have a binding tenancy in accordance with the 2004 RTA. A lease is simply a written interpretation of the act and its main purpose is to specify a fixed term and any special conditions assuming they are not contrary to the Act.


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    #17
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Gasherbraun wrote: »
    Minimum standards stipulates that a tenant should have control of the rented properties heating system. Hard to be sure without all the detail but it sounds as if the minimum standard is not being met. .

    if it's a newish apartment, it will have its own standalone heating system, I can't see how the LL could control this.


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    #18
    Gasherbraun
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭Gasherbraun


    davo10 wrote: »
    if it's a newish apartment, it will have its own standalone heating system, I can't see how the LL could control this.

    Agreed but the OP implies the landlord controls the heating. The standard says the tenant must be able to control the heating - effectively turn on and off and regulate the heat supply. Without the detail of the heating system it is hard to tell what level of control they have exactly though.

    Heating systems in modern apartments generally do meet minimum standards. Even storage heating which is on a utility supplied time clock allows for a tenant to turn it on and off and vary heat output.


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    #19
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,705 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OP, as often happens, the legal route is not going to be your friend here. Yes, the heating is unacceptable - but if you complain the answer will be for the council to tell the LL to change it.

    Don't start by asking the LL / agent if you can re-assign the lease.

    Do start by advertising and finding someone suitable to take it over. Then tell the LL / agent that you've found them someone: at that point they can either accept the suggested new person, or decline them. If they decline without good reason, then you can leave without being liable for the rest of the term of the tenancy.


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    #20
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    If they decline without good reason, then you can leave without being liable for the rest of the term of the tenancy.

    I wasn't aware that a tenant has a right to terminate tenancy if LL refuses to reassign lease. I can think of one scenario where this might be an issue, a tenant wants out of a letting agreement and arranges to reassign to someone who is "undesirable", landlord refuses, tenant walks away.

    Can you provide a link to back this up?, I thought reassignment was at the discretion of the LL.


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    #21
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,705 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    davo10 wrote: »
    Can you provide a link to back this up?, I thought reassignment was at the discretion of the LL.


    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

    In the Rights as a Landlord section.


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    #22
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

    In the Rights as a Landlord section.

    I think you need to clarify the clause "can give the tenant the right to terminate....."

    "Can", not "will".


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    #23
    the world wonders
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭the world wonders


    Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »
    A contract does not need to be in writing. For example, by paying a deposit and accepting the keys, the OP has entered into a verbal agreement to rent the property.
    This is correct. In fact, the Residential Tenancies Act explicitly says that tenancy agreements need not even be oral, never mind in writing:
    “tenancy agreement” includes an oral tenancy agreement;
    ...
    “tenancy” includes a periodic tenancy and a tenancy for a fixed term, whether oral or in writing or implied


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    #24
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,705 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »
    I think you need to clarify the clause "can give the tenant the right to terminate....."

    "Can", not "will".


    Maybe you would prefer the third paragraph in this link instead:

    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/ending-your-tenancy/


    I suspect that CI have an editing issue in their content: their sentence with "gives" in it makes more sense without "can" in it all, and that would make it consistent with the link above.


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    #25
    Gasherbraun
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭Gasherbraun


    Merely as an observation the Threshold link refers to a tenants requesting to assign or sublet and implies the right to terminate if a landlord refuses the assignment or sublet. This is not accurate.

    There is a statutory right to assign in certain circumstances and a right to terminate if the assignment is 'unreasonably' (and defining what is reasonable is the crux) refused but the same does not apply to subletting.


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    #26
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Why is the use of a pre-pay meter a reason to break the lease?

    Jimmy just ask the landlord can you reassign the lease.

    I would have thought that being in control of the bills for utilities is just as important as being in control of the heating, If the Landlord is insisting on the prepay meter then it would be unreasonable and imo the tenant could break the lease.


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    #27
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I would have thought that being in control of the bills for utilities is just as important as being in control of the heating, If the Landlord is insisting on the prepay meter then it would be unreasonable and imo the tenant could break the lease.


    The tenant was aware of the prepay billing prior to moving in, it's not a reason to break a lease.


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    #28
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    davo10 wrote: »
    if it's a newish apartment, it will have its own standalone heating system, I can't see how the LL could control this.

    it's not a newish apartment, there are two radiators but they are only heated during the winter months for a few hours in the morning and a few in the evening, otherwise I have 3 plug in electric heater units (filthy and old btw).


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    #29
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    JimmyRussell wrote: »
    it's not a newish apartment, there are two radiators but they are only heated during the winter months for a few hours in the morning and a few in the evening, otherwise I have 3 plug in electric heater units (filthy and old btw).

    Is this a large house subdivided into apartments with a communal heating system (one boiler heats all apartments)?


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    #30
    JimmyRussell
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭JimmyRussell


    davo10 wrote: »
    Is this a large house subdivided into apartments with a communal heating system (one boiler heats all apartments)?

    I believe so yes.


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    #31
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    JimmyRussell wrote: »
    I believe so yes.

    Have you said to LL that you find it cold and want heating on for longer? What do tenants in other apartments think?

    It's not unusual to have this type of set up in conversion apartments, the heating comes on at times when heat is needed, ie early morning and early evening with an additional time at night during the winter, tenants can regulate heat in each unit by turning on/off rads. Talk to the LL about getting new electric heaters to boost temperature in apartment when you need it.


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