Bus/ Van for communal use

cantdecide

Without going into too much detail, a friend of mine is taking on board a project that will involve an ongoing communal ECO building type project. He has decided that the project is going to have to have some kind of transport option to make it independent and to further entice people into getting involved.

Ultimately, whatever vehicle he settles on will have to alternate between carrying goods, materials and people. He was thinking something like a minibus with the option to remove seats to create a load area would be perfect. He obviously wants to stay cost effective while also staying square with the authorities in terms of registration, tax class, NCT/ CVRT and things like making sure all seats have belts (a sub question would be whether they are compulsory).

He doesn't have a fortune to lay out initially. How the vehicle will be fuelled and maintained is another issue- I was thinking something like an older Merc V230 converted to LPG or a diesel VW Caravelle or the like would give great flexibility. A private reg'd 3.0 diesel wouldn't be great on tax but maybe there's a happy medium?

What are the general issues to consider for this vehicle?

Bpmull

Why not get a crewcab van. They are all legal as they have been properly converted. The likes of a transporter, master, trafic, LT, transit. Anything he gets that is commercial will have to be cvrt tested regardless of whether it is taxed privately or commercially. Them vans normally have 6-7 seats and a good bit of space in the boot may be ideal.

cantdecide

You're right for sure. Is there any option where there would be no bulkhead where you could remove the rear seats for max load area? I suggested that he could have a roof rack for longer materials such as timber etc but when I quizzed my friend, he seemed anxious to be able to have access to both maximum load area and maximum passenger numbers even if it meant a certain amount of removing and replacing seats.

In fact, he was hoping about some option where he could convert a van to have army vehicle style bench seats running the length of the van opposite each other but I have no idea if this is viable.

Bpmull

cantdecide wrote: »

You're right for sure. Is there any option where there would be no bulkhead where you could remove the rear seats for max load area? I suggested that he could have a roof rack for longer materials such as timber etc but when I quizzed my friend, he seemed anxious to be able to have access to both maximum load area and maximum passenger numbers even if it meant a certain amount of removing and replacing seats.

In fact, he was hoping about some option where he could convert a van to have army vehicle style bench seats running the length of the van opposite each other but I have no idea if this is viable.

I couldn't see the army style seats passing a cvrt test they are gone quite strict. Maybe if he m got seat belts fitted and certified but even then I don't know whether he'd get away with it. As for the crew cabs most come with bulkheads but the can be removed. The same with the seats as afaik they are just bolted directly to the floor each seat. So the seats should be able to be unbolted and removed as required granted a bit of work. Again though I don't know would all that have to be put back in the bulkhead and seats to pass cvrt. I think the roof rack is a good idea but I suppose it can be a nuisance loading and unloading all the time.

Del2005

Minibus and trailer make sure the combination has a MAN/DGVW of less than 3.5t and it's still B compatible. Can't see any other way for people carrier and load carrier, unless they go for an MPV with seats that fold into the car.

Bpmull

Del2005 wrote: »

Minibus and trailer make sure the combination has a MAN/DGVW of less than 3.5t and it's still B compatible. Can't see any other way for people carrier and load carrier, unless they go for an MPV with seats that fold into the car.

Good idea and if he needed something dry Then you could get the likes of an ifor Williams box trailer and they are fully sealed may be better than just a standard trailer although it really depends on what's being carried. Also the minibus can only have a certain amount of seats to be able to drive it on a car licence I think a b licence covers 8-9 passengers. Keeping under the 3.5t as mentioned above may be an issue.

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

Good idea and if he needed something dry Then you could get the likes of an ifor Williams box trailer and they are fully sealed may be better than just a standard trailer although it really depends on what's being carried. Also the minibus can only have a certain amount of seats to be able to drive it on a car licence I think a b licence covers 8-9 passengers. Keeping under the 3.5t as mentioned above may be an issue.

Transit minibus with 9 seats (8 passengers + driver) with some luggage space in the back DGVW 3500kg.
And 750kg MAM trailer.

All legal on B licence. Transit like that is due NCT, not CVRT.

Bpmull

CiniO wrote: »

Transit minibus with 9 seats (8 passengers + driver) with some luggage space in the back DGVW 3500kg.
And 750kg MAM trailer.

All legal on B licence. Transit like that is due NCT, not CVRT.

I think it would still make more sense to buy a transit crewcab your still getting 6 seats but an actual seperate load space too at the back I know it's not huge and you would still need a trailer well maybe not if you get a roof rack. Seems like a better option than the minibus well unless you need to carry more than 5 passengers.

Del2005

Bpmull wrote: »

I think it would still make more sense to buy a transit crewcab your still getting 6 seats but an actual seperate load space too at the back I know it's not huge and you would still need a trailer well maybe not if you get a roof rack. Seems like a better option than the minibus well unless you need to carry more than 5 passengers.

A roof rack can carry very little, despite what people think, it's too high on a vehicle for anything other than bulky low weight items, they also increase fuel consumption but not sure how much more than a trailer.

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

Transit minibus with 9 seats (8 passengers + driver) with some luggage space in the back DGVW 3500kg.
And 750kg MAM trailer.

All legal on B licence. Transit like that is due NCT, not CVRT.

No Transit gets NCTd. It's the national car test, clue in the title.

CJhaughey

corktina wrote: »

No Transit gets NCTd. It's the national car test, clue in the title.

Not correct, the NCT covers passenger vehicles < 9 seats.
If its called a Tourneo or Transit its the same vehicle, VW Transporter or Caravelle same thing

corktina

You are right...so that means when my camper is 30 years old I shall be able to switch it to Vintage Tax and have it tested at the NCT I assume.

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

You are right...so that means when my camper is 30 years old I shall be able to switch it to Vintage Tax and have it tested at the NCT I assume.

I thought vintage wasn't NCT'd?

corktina

only pre 1980 is test exempt

CJhaughey

corktina wrote: »

You are right...so that means when my camper is 30 years old I shall be able to switch it to Vintage Tax and have it tested at the NCT I assume.

I think Motor Caravans are a separate entity to Passenger Vehicles, they are certainly listed as separate.

corktina

CJhaughey wrote: »

I think Motor Caravans are a separate entity to Passenger Vehicles, they are certainly listed as separate.

Yes but my point is I can tax it as Classic/Vintage once it is 30 years old so presumably I'll be able to test it as such too.(ie take it out of the Motor Caravan class

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

You are right...so that means when my camper is 30 years old I shall be able to switch it to Vintage Tax and have it tested at the NCT I assume.

Whether vehicle is due NCT or CVRT depends not on tax class, but on vehicle type.
NCT applies to passenger vehicles (up to 9 seats including driver).
Camper van is not classed as passenger vehicle.
Neither is a transit van with 3 seats in front, nor a crew cab.

But transit van which is passenger vehicle (has 9 seats) is a passenger vehicle and is due NCT.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

Yes but my point is I can tax it as Classic/Vintage once it is 30 years old so presumably I'll be able to test it as such too.(ie take it out of the Motor Caravan class

Tax class has nothing to do with vehicle type.
You might tax it as vintage, but it will still be motor caravan.

corktina

Is that a guess or can you show that to b the case?

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

Is that a guess or can you show that to b the case?

Well people often confuse vehicle type with tax class.
Vehicle type depends on how vehicle is built.
Tax class depends on both vehicle type and how it's used.

F.e. for NCT purposes "vehicle" is defined as follows:

“vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle having at least 4 wheels, used for the carriage of passengers and which has a maximum of 8 seats excluding the drivers seat;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/si/0322.html
This is definition of vehicle for NCT purposes - meaning such vehicles are due NCT.
Tax class doesn't matter - what matter's is vehicle type.

corktina

yeah well a camper fits that.

What I'm saying is when it is 30 years old it will become Vintage and eligible for cheap Vintage tax and thus , hopefully, will be eligible for an NCT rather than CVRT. Now if you don't know if that's possible, and no one else has actual experience of it, I'll ask Shannon.

CJhaughey

What about a vintage lorry how is that tested?
I suspect the test type follows the vehicle not the taxation class.

corktina

that's not relevant. If the NCT can, as stated, test a passenger Transit, then I'm looking to re-define my camper as a passenger transit once it's 30 years old.

Markcheese

Anywho a camper may suit , one of the old style mercs , that's taxed as a camper, you can carry up to the Max passengers 8 +driver - so long as all in proper seats with seat-belts , if there's a big load to carry you'd have to remove the seats but that wouldn't be too bad...

guil

corktina wrote: »

yeah well a camper fits that.

What I'm saying is when it is 30 years old it will become Vintage and eligible for cheap Vintage tax and thus , hopefully, will be eligible for an NCT rather than CVRT. Now if you don't know if that's possible, and no one else has actual experience of it, I'll ask Shannon.

Isn't the tax on a camper cheap already?

Old diesel

Is it possible to buy a Transit/Transporter/Sprinter/Hiace van - and CONVERT it into the type of vehicle that's required.

Obviously you CAN buy a minibus that's already a minibus - but as noted - it needs to be less then 8/9 seats - to be driven on a car licence.

One thing to watch (particularly on Sprinters) is to ensure that the van is in fact less then 3.5 tonnes - if its not you will need an additional licence category to drive it.

Going over 3.5 tonnes also means tachos potentially coming into the equation because afaik - 3.5 tonnes is the cut off point for tachos - now whether theres any exemption for private use I don't know - as when I used to read camper magazines a few years ago - a fair few motorhomes are over 3.5 tonnes - yet I never saw any mention of tachos

Life is thus MUCH easier at UNDER 3.5 tonnes and less THAN 8 seats.

Some will say that if one of the participants in the project ALREADY has a licence to drive over 3.5 tonnes - or drive a bus with more then 8 seats - that the licence doesn't matter so much.

But you need to take into account what happens if the guy or girl with the licence is ill or injured etc - the whole thing grinds to a halt.

All imo

corktina

guil wrote: »

Isn't the tax on a camper cheap already?

both tax and test cost for a classic are about 50% of the cost for a Camper.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Ive never seen a taxi being cvrt'd

Just saying ... always nct regardless of make / model of taxi.

Disagree with camper though.... too many variables on the inside of the camper that make it a camper and nct will not entertain the idea of it.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Once it gets to 30 years I'd be removing the camper stuff from my camper van, register it back to it's original "minibus" state and be subject to an annual NCT.
DOE is twice the price and much more restrictive (can't tax a DOE/CVRT eligible class without the test for instance but you can with an NCT eligible class vehicle)

corktina

exactly my point.... shouldn't be too difficult to strip out the fridge and the cooker etc. It hasn't ever ben a minibus though. It was still registered as a freight vehicle when I got it , despite it being a camper from day one, and I had to get it reclassified as a camper to re-register it in Ireland. (I'm not even convinced I'd have to take out the camper stuff to register it as a passenger vehicle)

cantdecide

There's also the issue that if a (modern) vehicle started it's life as a commercial vehicle and you wanted to have it reclassified as either a minibus or a camper, it would be liable for VRT?


Also, if my friend selected a modern commercial vehicle (eg 7 seat crew cab), can he legally own, insure and tax it as commercial? I know a lot of commercial vehicle policies can often stipulate anyone over 25 with a full license (and maybe with the permission of the owner) can drive it and this would be perfect but it's a moot point if his project won't qualify as a commercial venture.

There's a lot of useful info here, folks.