Engine failure

Senior Bill

Just suppose, that someone had a 4 year old Mercedes E class, and the engine failed with only 160,000 kilometers on it.
Now further suppose that this car, was (except for the last one ) main dealer serviced.
Now stretch further to suppose that despite an AA engineers report.
Mercedes refused any help with expensive repair costs,
As any reasonable person would expect the engine on a 48,000 euro car to last longer than 4 years and 100,000 miles.
Would it be possible to bring a claim against Mercedes to the small claims court?

coylemj

What does the AA engineer's report say? How exactly has the engine failed - what's required to fix it or is it beyond repair?

A bit heavier on the facts please.

Senior Bill

coylemj wrote: »

What does the AA engineer's report say? How exactly has the engine failed - what's required to fix it or is it beyond repair?

A bit heavier on the facts please.

Thanks for your interest. if this was a real situation this would be the AA report

We confirm inspecting the above vehicle on 9th July 2014 for the specific purpose of commenting on the condition of the engine.
The vehicle is reported to have been serviced by a Main dealership. The most recent oil changes were in 9/2013 at 130k. km and in 4/4013 at 110k km.
We understand from our client that an abnormal rattling noise in the engine had developed and was more apparent when starting the engine from cold and lasted for some seconds
The vehicle was left with the above repairer for investigation and they renewed the water pump and drive belt and also the timing chain and tensioner.
When the engine was restarted after this work, abnormal noises remained and the engine was further dismantled.
It was found that the teeth of the crankshaft drive gear train were damaged.
Due to the extent and nature of damage, a reconditioned unit was sought and required transfer of the ancillary equipment from the old to new engine.
The rear engine gear train is a complex arrangement of gears and sprockets including the crankshaft gear, balancer shaft gears, idlers gears, timing chain drive gear.
The idler gears are tensioned. The crankshaft end gear is integral and is not serviced as a separate part.
There were a number of gears with chipped or damaged teeth, especially the crankshaft gear and to a lesser extent the timing chain drive gear and LH idler gear.
The engine oil was clean consistent with having been changed when the timing chain was replaced.
The water pump and drive belt showed evidence of having been renewed.
The original timing chain and tensioner were not available for inspection as they had been discarded.
Summary:
Substantial damage has occurred to the gear teeth and we are of the opinion that there would be abnormal and excessive noise from the mechanism in operation.
As the crankshaft gear is integral, seemingly a decision was taken on economic and practical reasons to fit a reconditioned engine rather than overhaul the existing damaged unit.
The timing chain and tensioner are reported by the repairer to have been worn and this would have resulted in abnormal and excessive noise.
Seemingly the noise level after replacement of the chain was considerable. The repairer reports that traces of damaged gear teeth were present in the engine sump when the oil was drained off.

Wear or damage to the teeth could be caused by a number of factors such as inadequate or poor quality oil lubrication, a foreign object getting enmeshed in the gear train, substandard material.
Replacement of the chain may have placed a higher load than before on the gear train the noise level from the worn chain may have been masking that from the damaged/worn gear train.
Further stripping down of the engine could reveal further damage or wear and a metallurgical examination of the damaged gears should indicate the nature of damage and wear and indicate if a defect in the material composition was present.
We suggest that in the circumstances the matter be brought to the attention of the Dealer or Manufacturer for their comment.
Mr X
F.Inst AEA; MFIEA; MSOE, MIRTE; CAE, MIMI; ENG TECH AA Technical Engineer.

K.Flyer

Edit:
I posted at the same time as you posted the report..

I would think, that in a situation like that, that there would be some recourse.

coylemj

If you bought the car new from a Merc dealer then you may have a basis for a case. You'd be on slightly rockier ground if you bought it secondhand since in that case the fault could lie with the original owner and the way he (mis)treated the car. I think it's well outside the jurisdiction of the small claims court. If I was you I'd see a solicitor, it would be money well spent and you'll get a steer as to whether it's worth pursuing the legal case given that there appears to be no goodwill available to sort it out.

JustAddWater

Senior Bill wrote: »

Would it be possible to bring a claim against Mercedes to the small claims court?

SCC is useless in this case as the limit on a claim is only €2k

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

In theory of course

Pro Hoc Vice

The important part of the report,

"Wear or damage to the teeth could be caused by a number of factors such as inadequate or poor quality oil lubrication, a foreign object getting enmeshed in the gear train, substandard material.
Replacement of the chain may have placed a higher load than before on the gear train the noise level from the worn chain may have been masking that from the damaged/worn gear train.
Further stripping down of the engine could reveal further damage or wear and a metallurgical examination of the damaged gears should indicate the nature of damage and wear and indicate if a defect in the material composition was present."

Your report says the damage may have been caused by any one if a number if factors, there is currently noting in the report to say it is the fault of the maker or the garage that maintained the car.

porsche boy

GarIT wrote: »

It looks to me like somebody damaged the gearbox, you'd need to prove the damage wasn't driver error.

did you read the post?? why are you even talking about the gearbox?? This is all to do with the timing chain and associated gears in the ENGINE.

mphalo1

if it isn't under warranty its tough luck and a waste of more money going to court just get the new motor or the old one fixed and move on is my opinion

mdebets

Senior Bill wrote: »

Would it be possible to bring a claim against Mercedes to the small claims court?

No, because unless you bought it directly from Mercedes, you don't have a contract with them, plus the SCC only goes until € 2.000.
However, if you want to sue the dealer, you bought the car from for a repair, replacement, refund in a court (which one depends on how much the repair is), you might have a case.

Bepolite

Assuming the repair cost is under €2000 the Small Claim Procedure can be used, however make sure you're going after the correct party.

tenifan

mdebets wrote: »

No, because unless you bought it directly from Mercedes, you don't have a contract with them

You can still approach the manufacturer if you are not happy with the dealer's response. They have teams of people who want to encourage you to stick with the brand.

My 2c, I think modern cars are so complicated, you're not going to see very many of them with 240k miles on the clock. Also, any mercedes owners I know (not that many) don't seem to put in a lot of mileage.

burke027

You know that that engine in question has a known fault with the cam gears and the chain.
There is loads of issues that can lead to this but at that millage I'd say u did very well the timing chain normally fails about 80k.
If the gears are wore ur in for a expensive fix it not your not to bad it's only the chain and tensioner provided it didn't bend some valves.

If it's just the chain to be changed we can do this job in 2.5 hours we surely do 1 a week and maybe 2 out 6 require new gears so it will depend if yours are wore.
You won't get any Warrenby on this engine for that job I can assure you that not worth ur time trying
If u need any further info just ask I'd gladly help ya out we are a merc and bmw specialist

Moomat

How long is the usual warranty on the car?

Have I got this right, car had noise in engine, brought to main dealer who replaced parts, car still had noise? Who brought a reconditioned engine into the equation?

You may have a case for a goodwill claim or there may be warranty on work you have had carried out. However, if any work was carried out under warranty then the warranty on the work expires with the main car warranty.

Bepolite

Moomat wrote: »

How long is the usual warranty on the car?

Have I got this right, car had noise in engine, brought to main dealer who replaced parts, car still had noise? Who brought a reconditioned engine into the equation?

You may have a case for a goodwill claim or there may be warranty on work you have had carried out. However, if any work was carried out under warranty then the warranty on the work expires with the main car warranty.

While I'm not commenting on the possibility of the OP being sucessful, normal consumer rights apply with cars, the limitation period is six years.

Marcusm

Bepolite wrote: »

While I'm not commenting on the possibility of the OP being sucessful, normal consumer rights apply with cars, the limitation period is six years.

If the original purchaser hasn't explicitly transferred the benefit of the manufacturer's undertakings, presumably there is an issue with the current owner having standing to sue the manufacturer?

Maximilian

No legal advice. Please read the charter.