What Style for Self Defense, What Club South County Dublin?

AltAccount

Apologies if this has been asked a million times!
Apologies also for all the detail, I just thought it may help with framing the question...

I'm a 37 year old man with a good level of cardio fitness. I'm 5'7", 67kg, a little stocky. I've done quite a bit of cycling but no strength sports or fighting.

I've been happily pootling along in my current mode for a while, and haven't had too much of an inclination to taking up a fighting sport up until recently.

What's changed is that I now have two daughters - 3 and 1. All of a sudden I'm very aware that I'm not strong, and if push came to shove, a poor protector.

I would like to learn a fighting style that would be effective for defending myself or my family.
I'd love to get some advice on what's most appropriate for me. I'm presuming something more striking than grappling, more suitable for a smaller guy, with more sparring and "practical application" than theory etc.

Secondly, I need recommendations on where to learn. I live in South County Dublin, so Killiney Bray, Deansgrange, Monkstown, Dun Laoghaire etc would be best.
I've looked at the "find a club" thread, but it's not helping.

I'd appreciate any feedback you can give. If there's a YouTube video that gives a good idea of the style, that'd be brilliant.

Thanks!

Peetrik

Hi Alt,

The short answer is, if you want to learn to fight do MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ or Boxing.


Longer answer is, your size and weight aren't really a factor as to whether striking or grappling would suit you, the most important thing really is that you enjoy it because if you enjoy it you'll keep it up.

Find a few clubs that are close to you and try them all to see which one you enjoy the most, but if any of the short answer styles are available then make sure to include those in the styles you try.

Best of luck with it.

Edit. Not sure about the others but the closest Thai boxing club to you is Warriors Thai in Dun Laoghaire

AltAccount

Peetrik wrote: »

Hi Alt,

The short answer is, if you want to learn to fight do MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ or Boxing.


Longer answer is, your size and weight aren't really a factor as to whether striking or grappling would suit you, the most important thing really is that you enjoy it because if you enjoy it you'll keep it up.

Find a few clubs that are close to you and try them all to see which one you enjoy the most, but if any of the short answer styles are available then make sure to include those in the styles you try.

Best of luck with it.

Edit. Not sure about the others but the closest Thai boxing club to you is Warriors Thai in Dun Laoghaire

Thanks!

There's also boxing in Ballybrack and Monkstown (not sure how to choose) and BJJ in Monkstown too.

Is the best way to choose a club by turning up and seeing if you like it, or would you look for recommendations for the best teacher/culture?

Peetrik

AltAccount wrote: »

Is the best way to choose a club by turning up and seeing if you like it, or would you look for recommendations for the best teacher/culture?

Bit of both really. For me, I'd look as to whether a club is competing or not, if they are competing then chances are they will be training effectively and you will improve faster.
But again, it's important that you enjoy training there so that you keep going and they only way to find that out is to go along and try a class or two.

If I was in your position I'd try out the competitive clubs first. Can't speak for the boxing or BJJ but the Thai club I mentioned have a full stable of ranked fighters.

Niall Keane

AltAccount wrote: »

Apologies if this has been asked a million times!
Apologies also for all the detail, I just thought it may help with framing the question...

I'm a 37 year old man with a good level of cardio fitness. I'm 5'7", 67kg, a little stocky. I've done quite a bit of cycling but no strength sports or fighting.

I've been happily pootling along in my current mode for a while, and haven't had too much of an inclination to taking up a fighting sport up until recently.

What's changed is that I now have two daughters - 3 and 1. All of a sudden I'm very aware that I'm not strong, and if push came to shove, a poor protector.

I would like to learn a fighting style that would be effective for defending myself or my family.
I'd love to get some advice on what's most appropriate for me. I'm presuming something more striking than grappling, more suitable for a smaller guy, with more sparring and "practical application" than theory etc.

Secondly, I need recommendations on where to learn. I live in South County Dublin, so Killiney Bray, Deansgrange, Monkstown, Dun Laoghaire etc would be best.
I've looked at the "find a club" thread, but it's not helping.

I'd appreciate any feedback you can give. If there's a YouTube video that gives a good idea of the style, that'd be brilliant.

Thanks!

Paul Moran who posts here runs the Yang Martial Arts Academy in Deansgrange beside the NCT testing facility.

This year one of his fighters took bronze in the ewuf sanda Europeans - which is as good a recommendation as you can get. Sanda - sanshou mixes strikes and stand up grappling, you will find it all over YouTube.

Tom.D.BJJ

AltAccount wrote: »

I live in South County Dublin, so Killiney Bray, Deansgrange, Monkstown, Dun Laoghaire etc would be best.

Morning sir,

Check out East Coast Jiu Jitsu www.ecjja.com or Gracie Barra Dublin (Dundrum). Both are close to the locations you have listed and BJJ is unquestionably the ultimate form of self defence. Both clubs are run by two of the most decorated grapplers in the country.

Any questions, just ask

SVJKarate

AltAccount wrote: »

I've done quite a bit of cycling but no strength sports or fighting.

I've been happily pootling along in my current mode for a while, and haven't had too much of an inclination to taking up a fighting sport up until recently.

There's a Shotokan Karate club in Loughlinstown Leisure Centre, that trains two evenings a week. Traditional Shotokan training is not very intensive in terms of strikes-per-minute and instead focusses on techniques (body coordination) to maximise your effectiveness in striking, kicking etc. If your interest in fighting is only recent you may find that the quick-to-combat approach of MMA training does not suit you.

I'm a fan of BJJ, but I don't advocate it for self-defence as the method of fighting is best applied on one-to-one, and self-defence is almost always one-to-many.

Regards,

AltAccount

Niall Keane wrote: »

Paul Moran who posts here runs the Yang Martial Arts Academy in Deansgrange beside the NCT testing facility.

This year one of his fighters took bronze in the ewuf sanda Europeans - which is as good a recommendation as you can get. Sanda - sanshou mixes strikes and stand up grappling, you will find it all over YouTube.

Sanda looks like it would Fit the bill, and the location works too. I'll check it out next Monday, thanks.

AltAccount

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Morning sir,

Check out East Coast Jiu Jitsu www.ecjja.com or Gracie Barra Dublin (Dundrum). Both are close to the locations you have listed and BJJ is unquestionably the ultimate form of self defence. Both clubs are run by two of the most decorated grapplers in the country.

Any questions, just ask

I checked out ECJJ online, BJJ looks very impressive but I get the feeling I'd feel exposed with a pure ground based style (if I understood BJJ correctly) for self defence purposes. Is it OK to pop along and watch some training some day?

AltAccount

SVJKarate wrote: »

There's a Shotokan Karate club in Loughlinstown Leisure Centre, that trains two evenings a week. Traditional Shotokan training is not very intensive in terms of strikes-per-minute and instead focusses on techniques (body coordination) to maximise your effectiveness in striking, kicking etc. If your interest in fighting is only recent you may find that the quick-to-combat approach of MMA training does not suit you.

I'm a fan of BJJ, but I don't advocate it for self-defence as the method of fighting is best applied on one-to-one, and self-defence is almost always one-to-many.

Regards,

My instinct is that sparring would be more immediately applicable than technical practice for self defence, am I wrong?

Mellor

SVJKarate wrote: »

If your interest in fighting is only recent you may find that the quick-to-combat approach of MMA training does not suit you.

Whats a quick to combat approach?

AltAccount wrote: »

My instinct is that sparring would be more immediately applicable than technical practice for self defence, am I wrong?

I think you are completely right. Others may disagree. The arts mentioned at the start MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing and Sanda all involve live sparring with a resisting opponent. This imo is the most important factor.

Technique, air punches practise, and set pieces is all well and good. But its not much use if you can't recall it when you get punched you in the face.

SVJKarate

Mellor wrote: »

Whats a quick to combat approach?

I should have said "quick-to-sparring" approach, i.e. where the training method involves sparring from an early stage.

Mellor wrote: »

Technique, air punches practise, and set pieces is all well and good. But its not much use if you can't recall it when you get punched you in the face.

Karate training is not about learning set pieces by rote; it is learning to use your body in a coordinated way to make strikes more effective. It is not something you need to consciously remember, so there is no real validity in suggesting that you'd forget it when you need it. Mind you, once you've been punched hard in the face it's fairly easy to become incapacitated regardless of what your training is.

Peetrik

I'm with Mellor here, all in sparring is one of the most important factors in learning how to fight.

Like many others here I'm sure, I've seen plenty of people look great hitting pads or shadow boxing and then fall to bits in sparring, either swinging wildly with no technique or standing there doing nothing while they get picked apart.

SVJKarate wrote: »

once you've been punched hard in the face it's fairly easy to become incapacitated regardless of what your training is.

Boxers get punched in the face their entire fight. They've conditioned themselves not to fall to bits after getting punched in the face through taking punches in sparring. Thai boxers condition themselves to take leg kicks through sparring.

I'd be fairly skeptical of any martial art that doesn't have a big focus on sparring in it.

Mellor

SVJKarate wrote: »

I should have said "quick-to-sparring" approach, i.e. where the training method involves sparring from an early stage.

Are you suggesting it's a negative to use sparring as a training method?

Karate training is not about learning set pieces by rote; it is learning to use your body in a coordinated way to make strikes more effective. It is not something you need to consciously remember, so there is no real validity in suggesting that you'd forget it when you need it.

I wasn't suggesting you literally "forget". But being in a high pressure situation they haven't experienced can overwhelm most people.

The first time anyone spars. I'd expect them to be a little frantic. The next time, less so. And so on.

Mind you, once you've been punched hard in the face it's fairly easy to become incapacitated regardless of what your training is.

The other advantage of sparring, and in reality the main advantage in terms of self defence. Is actively practising defending strikes.
There's a massive difference between blocking a real punch. And a block drill with a partner.

SVJKarate

Mellor wrote: »

Are you suggesting it's a negative to use sparring as a training method?

Of course not! Martial art training that does not involve sparring is like learning to drive a car without ever going on the road. However there are driving schools that start your training in a classroom, or in a simulator, or in a field, so that you can learn the mechanics of driving before you take to the road to learn the really important skills around interaction with other road users. Think 'planes' rather than 'cars' and you'll spend even more time in the classroom and in the simulator before you progress to co-piloting and ultimately then to piloting.

The issue of what is the best speed to go from start of training to sparring depends a lot on the skills, abilities and background of the practitioner, among other factors. If you're from a background where you have not made a fist with your hand for over 20 years then maybe a slower transition to sparring would be better than a faster transition. Many people are turned off MAs because they were scared by their early experiences of sparring when they started out. Many others are turned off MAs by the boredom of not sparring in their early classes.

If you started karate in the 70's or 80's you will probably have moved very quickly to sparring, and the resultant injuries (or just frights) led to a lot of people dropping out. Nowadays karate clubs tend to go slower before moving to partner-work, and slower again to free-sparring, and anecdotally some clubs never get there (especially if the students are mostly young kids). I started training in the early 80's and free-sparring was the norm after the first belt (3 months) but it coincided with a high drop-out rate. Prior to that the sparring was 'basic sparring' which involves pre-agreed attacks and defences.

My point to the OP was simply to be aware that different schools / styles move at different speeds towards sparring. It's about picking what suits you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Apart from live sparring, which I feel is one of the most important elements of any style if self defense (or competition) is a consideration is to choose a style which focuses on staying on your feet to strike and make your get away or simply stand and trade.

Muay Thai, boxing and MMA are head and shoulders above all the rest IMO.

I love training BJJ, but I'd rarely recommend it for self defense ~ not unless the other's just aren't available in your area.

An honourable mention must go to Sanda - Sanshou, I've trained with a few of those lads and their striking, clinch and take-downs were pretty impressive (and thats coming from a Judoka!).

Mellor

SVJKarate wrote: »

Of course not! Martial art training that does not involve sparring is like learning to drive a car without ever going on the road.

That's good. I think I was mistook where you were coming from.
As bizarre as it sounds, sparring is suggested as useless here regularly.

When to spar is also hugely style dependant i'd imagine. When a new person comes to a BJJ class, they'd be encouraged to spar (roll) at the end of their first lesson. Most of the time, its with one of the advanced students, if they came with a friend they might roll with each other.
I don't see any downside to this, in grappling. But It wouldn't be a bright idea on day 1 of a striking art.

dubdamo

The OP is 37 though lads. How many boxing clubs would welcome a 37 yr old, how many 37 yr olds are taking up MMA with absolutely no previous experience. I'm 44 and I went to a BJJ class to take a look. It was only when the instructor was actually locking up and everyone was gone that he looked at me with an inquiring look. I told him I came down to check out the class , he said "oh sorry I thought you were down to collect one of the lads, I thought you were one of their dads".

Doug Cartel

dubdamo wrote: »

How many boxing clubs would welcome a 37 yr old

The average run of the mill boxing club? Not many. Thing is though, there was a bit of an up-swing in white collar boxing a while ago and there are a few places knocking around that cater to older beginners.

, how many 37 yr olds are taking up MMA with absolutely no previous experience.

Probably a few. Probably too late to become a competitor, but not too old to train in a lot of places. Some gyms are quite hardcore and might not care for hobbyists, but lots of them are welcoming of people who just want to turn up and train.

I'm 44 and I went to a BJJ class to take a look. It was only when the instructor was actually locking up and everyone was gone that he looked at me with an inquiring look. I told him I came down to check out the class , he said "oh sorry I thought you were down to collect one of the lads, I thought you were one of their dads".

44 would be a bit to the right on the bell curve, but a lot of BJJ places do actually tend to have an average age that runs quite high. I see lots of early to mid thirties beginners, I wouldn't consider 37 to be too unusual.

Basically, he won't know if the place suits him unless he goes there and tries it out. He might like it, he might not. If he doesn't he can try something else.

Blackthorn Fight School

Plenty of good suggestions and great clubs on here. My first bit of advice when it comes to self defence is get fit this can come with training but either way its useful and key to protecting yourself.

I font like the whole discussion of what style is best for self defence its really a case of whatever works at the time. You would be more than welcome to drop into our club we are a dog brothers group but deal with all of the areas within it not just stick fighting and weapons. We deal with plenty of areas unarmed and armed disciplines and spar in as realistic a way as possible.

Either way learning the basics of striking and grappling are very useful and there are a good few useful clubs near you that can help you.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I'm a karateka so obviously I am biased towards karate but honestly I'd say sensei (or coach) is much more important than style when choosing a club.

There are points fighting karate guys that would bounce off against any opponent and there are karate clubs that produce guys who would handle themselves beautifully when it comes to an incident.

SVJKarate

Mellor wrote: »

That's good. I think I was mistook where you were coming from.
As bizarre as it sounds, sparring is suggested as useless here regularly.

To be fair I've not seen that, but I'm new to Boards.ie so maybe I just have not stumbled upon one of those older threads. The only time I could imagine that sparring is useless is in a gun club.

What I have seen a lot of, looking back over older threads here, is kata-bashing - generally by people who have either never trained it, or have only trained kata as a dance (which is how a lot of clubs teach it to kids). Proper adult kata training, including two-person kata drills, is a core part of learning karate. I occasionally get 'new' students who have trained in styles or clubs where kata is not practised thoroughly, and the gap in their knowledge is evident the moment they try to use karate in close-in situations.

SVJKarate

dubdamo wrote: »

The OP is 37 though lads. How many boxing clubs would welcome a 37 yr old, how many 37 yr olds are taking up MMA with absolutely no previous experience.

I can't speak for any of those, but I can tell you that our karate club welcomes people of any age (over 7). You can learn to improve your abilities regardless of how old you are. Obviously if you're 44 and have not done any training or regular exercise you're unlikely to become the next Jean Claude Van Damme, but you can still reach the level of a black belt if you're fit enough to train, and committed enough to put the hours and effort in.

Peetrik

SVJKarate wrote: »

What I have seen a lot of, looking back over older threads here, is kata-bashing - generally by people who have either never trained it, or have only trained kata as a dance (which is how a lot of clubs teach it to kids).

For reasons outlined in the many threads I've bashed kata in, I'd consider kata an easy way of spotting clubs that aren't going to be much use as regards fighting.

Seriously though, if you want to insist that kata have a place in learning to fight then you should start a new thread as this one will get very derailed.

dubdamo

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The average run of the mill boxing club? Not many. Thing is though, there was a bit of an up-swing in white collar boxing a while ago and there are a few places knocking around that cater to older beginners.


Probably a few. Probably too late to become a competitor, but not too old to train in a lot of places. Some gyms are quite hardcore and might not care for hobbyists, but lots of them are welcoming of people who just want to turn up and train.


44 would be a bit to the right on the bell curve, but a lot of BJJ places do actually tend to have an average age that runs quite high. I see lots of early to mid thirties beginners, I wouldn't consider 37 to be too unusual.

Basically, he won't know if the place suits him unless he goes there and tries it out. He might like it, he might not. If he doesn't he can try something else.

It's a pity that more boxing clubs aren't welcoming to 40+ people. It would be a good source of income for them. Even the white collar stuff, I remember inquiring about it and being told you can train but not do the fights because you're over 35. I like your description of being an MMA 'hobbiyist' because in reality most 40+ people will not have the time to devote any more than 2/3 sessions a week and they know that they are not going to be the next UFC sensation. However there are plenty of people in that situation (old!)who want to do functional alive training and who recognise the value of it. They have less time to train, so they don't want to waste that time marching up and down a hall, with one hand cocked to their hip, punching and kicking the air.

smacl

dubdamo wrote: »

It's a pity that more boxing clubs aren't welcoming to 40+ people. It would be a good source of income for them. Even the white collar stuff, I remember inquiring about it and being told you can train but not do the fights because you're over 35. I like your description of being an MMA 'hobbiyist' because in reality most 40+ people will not have the time to devote any more than 2/3 sessions a week and they know that they are not going to be the next UFC sensation. However there are plenty of people in that situation (old!)who want to do functional alive training and who recognise the value of it. They have less time to train, so they don't want to waste that time marching up and down a hall, with one hand cocked to their hip, punching and kicking the air.

Very much like yourself, 48 now and would like to get some training in after being away from MA for awhile, but not likely to be competitive at this stage.

I was chatting to the guy running St Joseph's Amateur Boxing Club in Ballyboden earlier this year as my kids want to start boxing, and I was half thinking of joining just to get some training myself. The response was they'd be delighted to have me for training and sparring, no formal competitions due to ABC rules, but possibly some informal fights if people of the same ability were keen. I'd certainly give your local boxing club a shout to find out what the story is.

Talking to Niall Keane who teaches san shou a couple of months ago, he mentioned quite a few of his regulars were older lads, so if he's anyway local to you maybe give him a shout. Could be a good fit.

I reckon its worth checking out any clubs in your range, regardless of style, and see what they have to offer first hand.

smacl

@Altaccount, in Blackrock you should also check out Garry Hodgins's Systema classes. Garry's got a strong competitive background, and trained in the same team as Niall Keane and myself back in the day. I went down to one of his classes a couple of weeks ago, and was very impressed with what he had to teach and his approach to teaching. Certainly very self defence oriented.