Tenant refusing to pay lease holder, lease holder can't pay LL!

cormie

My friend is currently a lease holder on a property, he pays the LL every month and the tenants all pay him. There's a new tenant who's proving a bit problematic and is now refusing to pay my friend the rent, because the property is not up to the standards that a property should be maintained to, as set out by PTRB or whoever it is.

My friend is a bit of a walkover when it comes to people taking advantage of him, infact between past tenants he's owed A LOT of money so I thought I'd post this so he's not taken advantage of yet again.

This tenant in particular is saying she's refusing to pay and the LL can take her to court if she wants and she's confident she'll win and she's saying it's between her and the LL. She was telling me before how many times she's moved and places she lived and now I'm thinking it might be such a high figure because she's difficult to live with (there's other things too besides this).

My friend and the other tenants are all happy enough with the condition of the property as it's below market value for the number of rooms and size of the property. They also have a deal with the LL where they have reduced rent by 50eur a month and this amount is put towards a home improvement fund which the tenants agree on what to spend it on so it's not exactly your typical agreement. I'm not sure if the LL is registered or anything like that but just thought I'd post here to get any advice for my friend.

One important thing is the new tenant hasn't paid a deposit. Again, my friend stupidly allowed her to move in without her paying a deposit so he can't just kick her out, he needs to get money off her first

Any input appreciated!

Stheno

If your friend is the leaseholder, then they are responsible for paying the rent tbh.

As the tenant is not on the lease, can they simply tell them to move out?

cormie

I don't think he wants to just kick her out, she hasn't found a new place yet and I don't think she's in the best financial situation, my friend will likely lose out instead of her AGAIN as this is what always happens and people take advantage of him.

h2005

Just kick her out. Why would your friend do her any favours if this is how she behaves?

Nekarsulm

if you and he both know this woman is "not in the best financial position" then why in the name of all that's holy allow her to move in?
He is not going to get rent off her. Get her out and get a paying tenant.

This falls under the heading of a "stupidity tax" to be honest.

murphaph

Your friend needs to grow a pair and kick her out. He's living there too right? If so he can tell her to leave immediately if he is her landlord.

garhjw

Kick her out today. Sounds to me like the tenant just wants to live rent free.

Arbiter of Good Taste

The accommodation was "non-compliant" before she moved in. She knew. She's freeloading. Kick her out.

the_syco

If everyone pays your mate the rent, does this give him "owner occupier" rights that can kick her out at 24 hours notice? If she hasn't signed a lease, and not paid deposit, I'd get your mate to give her X amount of notice.

As for her not having anywhere to go, it seems like she has put herself into this hole to enable her to pull the heart strings when your mate tries to get her to leave. And unless he is a charity wants to continue to pay her way, he has to kick her out.

cormie

Yep, everyone pays my friend and then he pays the landlord from what I know. It's up to him to find new tenants. I know there's other arrangements such as each tenant paying the landlord directly into their account and the landlord finds the tenants and nobody knows who might be moving in next, this is not the case with my friends place.

I think my friend is afraid aswell that if he kicks her out, she'll report the house and cause more problems. He believes that she already reported them as they had inspectors from the council around the other week looking at the back garden and they were asking how many people live in the house etc.

Arbiter of Good Taste

cormie wrote: »

Yep, everyone pays my friend and then he pays the landlord from what I know. It's up to him to find new tenants. I know there's other arrangements such as each tenant paying the landlord directly into their account and the landlord finds the tenants and nobody knows who might be moving in next, this is not the case with my friends place.

I think my friend is afraid aswell that if he kicks her out, she'll report the house and cause more problems. He believes that she already reported them as they had inspectors from the council around the other week looking at the back garden and they were asking how many people live in the house etc.

She's a troublemaker. She hasn't paid a deposit, she doesn't have a lease, and she hasn't paid a penny in rent. So surely, technically she is now trespassing. In that case does she even have a right to report to the PRTB. Get rid.

cormie

Thanks again for the advice folks. I've passed on the info to my friend.

He doesn't want to kick her out until he's spoken to the Garda/Threshold to confirm that he's ok not to let her into the house since she hasn't paid.

Can anyone confirm this? The post about about her trespassing seems to strongly suggest he can.

It's her grandmothers funeral today so I suggested he gives her until tomorrow night to move out.

JoeySully

I was in a similar situation where I had a licensee started refusing to pay rent/bills claiming it would all be paid back when the social welfare was back dated.

It went on for months and one day I came home to find his room cleared out. He had moved on and didn't even say thanks for paying for his rent,light and heating. Cost me €600 but it was a lesson well learned and I wont ever pay anyone's way ever again

Grandmother or no Grandmother, use the €50 to change the locks and give a key to you landlord. Don't let her back in without paying up whats owed.
Throw here stuff in black bags and give them to her on the door step.

Guards wont care, its not their business to get involved.

the_syco

cormie wrote: »

My friend is a bit of a walkover

Yup, and this tenant will make him pay for it.

cormie wrote: »

I don't think he wants to just kick her out, she hasn't found a new place yet and I don't think she's in the best financial situation

She has no reason to look for a new place, if she sees your mate as a soft touch.

cormie wrote: »

It's her grandmothers funeral today so I suggested he gives her until tomorrow night to move out.

I'm thinking this popped up as she's copped that your mate is trying to get rid of her, to tug the ole heart strings.

cormie wrote: »

she's refusing to pay and the LL can take her to court if she wants and she's confident she'll win and she's saying it's between her and the LL.

No deposit, no lease, no rent? Give 24 hours notice.

cormie wrote: »

Again, my friend stupidly allowed her to move in without her paying a deposit so he can't just kick her out, he needs to get money off her first

If he gets money off her, she'll be harder to move on. Just get rid. But I've a bad feeling she'll give your mate deposit and a months rent, and then play the waiting game, and cost him buckets more in the long run.

the_syco

JoeySully wrote: »

Grandmother or no Grandmother, use the €50 to change the locks and give a key to you landlord. Don't let her back in without paying up whats owed.
Throw here stuff in black bags and give them to her on the door step.

DO NOT DO THIS IS IT CAN BE SEEN AS ILLEGAL EVICTION, and she most likely knows it. You would be playing right into her hands.

Arbiter of Good Taste

the_syco wrote: »

DO NOT DO THIS IS IT CAN BE SEEN AS ILLEGAL EVICTION, and she most likely knows it. You would be playing right into her hands.

But eviction from what? There's no lease. She paid no deposit or rent. It would be very hard for her to prove she has any rights.

Grandpa Hassan

She's a licensee, right? So she has no rights. Tenancy agreement rules don't apply. Give her notice, then pack her stuff for her if she does not respond to a more determined approach

Cuddlesworth

the_syco wrote: »

DO NOT DO THIS IS IT CAN BE SEEN AS ILLEGAL EVICTION, and she most likely knows it. You would be playing right into her hands.

Shes subletting. She has no rights, she can't go to the PRTB. If she had really been to this many places she would at last know this. Even if she tried to take him to circuit court she would have to explain why she never paid a cent.

Turf her and learn your lesson.

ted1

the_syco wrote: »

DO NOT DO THIS IS IT CAN BE SEEN AS ILLEGAL EVICTION, and she most likely knows it. You would be playing right into her hands.

Without hey paying money there is no contract in place. Can it be seen as an eviction ?

tenifan

If she hasn't paid a cent, and hasn't signed anything.. there is no contract. Turf her out.
Have you seen that episode of friends where Chandler got a new roommate Eddie to replace Joey? Then Joey (spoiler alert) Joey moved back in and Chandler pretended Eddie never lived there?
That might work.

the_syco

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Shes subletting. She has no rights, she can't go to the PRTB. If she had really been to this many places she would at last know this. Even if she tried to take him to circuit court she would have to explain why she never paid a cent.

Turf her and learn your lesson.

Hrm. I take your point. Just don't want the soft touch getting poked hard, but then again, in the long run, it may do him some good!

Mr. Incognito

She is a licencee not a tenant. She has no rights. Change the locks and turf her out

cormie

Thanks again for the replies folks. Just to point out that she HAS paid for previous months, she moved in at the start of May and has paid rent at the start of May, June and July, she hasn't paid for August and hasn't paid her full share of the bills for ANY month yet either.

Mr. Incognito

So she paid three months. Whoop. No deposit. No bills. Threatening the prtb.

Turf her.