Munster hurling champion record in AI series

zombieHanalei · 18-08-2014 9:58am #1

Amprodude · 18-08-2014 10:34am

zombieHanalei wrote: »

In the present double knockout format where the Munster champion has advanced direct to the AI semi final, the Munster champion has won their next game on just two out of ten occasions. I don't believe the lay off is a disadvantage in itself, however I do think it could be suggested that this raises question marks over how teams prepare when faced with a 4+ week period of inactivity. What is it Kilkenny are doing right that the Munster champions are not? The last three Munster champions have been a major disappointment in their All-Ireland semi final.

A novel suggestion I would make is for the creation of an extra competition; on the weekend the All-Ireland quarter finals I think it would be interesting to have a game between the Munster and Leinster champions where a shield or cup is awarded to the winner; an "unofficial" championship match where the winner is recognised as the only team not to suffer defeat up to that point. The All-Ireland shield or something like that.

It would ultimately be nothing more than a glorified challenge match but a useful warm up nonetheless. And all 4 All-Ireland semi finalists would have the same wait time in the run up to their respective semi finals.

See below a table outlining how each Munster champion has fared in their next match since the backdoor was introduced.

YEAR|CHAMPION|wait time|Opposition|Points
1997|Clare|5 weeks|Kilkenny|4 point WIN
1998|Clare|3 weeks|Offaly|DRAW
1999|Cork|5 weeks|Offaly|3 point WIN
2000|Cork|5 weeks|Offaly|4 point LOSS
2001|Tipperary|6 weeks|Wexford|DRAW
2002|Waterford|6 weeks|Clare|3 point LOSS
2003|Cork|6 weeks|Wexford|DRAW
2004|Waterford|6 weeks|Kilkenny|3 point LOSS
2005|Cork|4 weeks|Waterford|5 point WIN
2006|Cork|4 weeks|Limerick|1 point WIN
2007|Waterford|3 weeks|Cork|DRAW
2008|Tipperary|5 weeks|Waterford|2 point LOSS
2009|Tipperary|5 weeks|Limerick|24 point WIN
2010|Waterford|4 weeks*|Tipperary|7 point LOSS
2011|Tipperary|5 weeks|Dublin|4 point WIN
2012|Tipperary|5 weeks|Kilkenny|18 point LOSS
2013|Limerick|5 weeks|Clare|7 point LOSS
2014|Cork|5 weeks|Tipperary|10 point LOSS

Overall record in next game played; P18, W6, D4, L8.

Record with 6 week wait; P4, W0, D2, L2.
Record with 5 week wait; P9, W4, D0, L5.
Record with 4 week wait; P3, W2, D0, L1.
Record with 3 week wait; P2, W0, D2, L0.

Record in format A; P5, W2, D2, L1.
Record in format B; P3, W2, D1, L0.
Record in format C; P10, W2, D1, L7.

Format A, when defeated Munster/Leinster finalists went into AI Quarter final with Galway and Ulster champion. (backdoor lite). Munster/Leinster champions enter at SF stage. (1997-2001)

Format B, Backdoor for all, but Munster and Leinster champions enter at QF stage (shortening their wait time by 1/2 weeks) (2005-2007)

Format C; Present double knockout format, open to all teams. Champions enter at SF stage with 5/6 week wait time. (2002-2004, 2008-present)

Did Waterford not beat Tipp by a point in 2008 and not 2 points?

Something needs to be done as it's clearly affecting the winners of Munster nearly every year.

Rightwing · 18-08-2014 10:38am

Amprodude wrote: »

Did Waterford not beat Tipp by a point in 2008 and not 2 points?

Something needs to be done as it's clearly affecting the winners of Munster nearly every year.

They are simply not good enough. Cork were effectively a Div1 B team. LK the same last year. The best team will not always win the Munster, it's far too competitive for that.

KK are way ahead in Leinster, but are slipping so they could easily have lost this years semi.

Amprodude · 18-08-2014 12:35pm

Rightwing wrote: »

KK are way ahead in Leinster, but are slipping so they could easily have lost this years semi.

They won without playing well. They scored two goals and goals win matches. They scored them at the right times too and Limerck never looked like scoring goals in any games they played this year.

zombieHanalei · 18-08-2014 12:40pm

And here's me thinking we scored 6 goals in the championship this year but obviously I must be mistaken :rolleyes:

Amprodude · 18-08-2014 12:44pm

zombieHanalei wrote: »

And here's me thinking we scored 6 goals in the championship this year but obviously I must be mistaken :rolleyes:

Wexford are a good team in fairness.

zombieHanalei · 18-08-2014 12:50pm

They were good enough for you to predict a certain victory for them against Limerick.

And Tipperary? Put two past them, one more than Cork managed yesterday.

Actually, never mind. It's pretty clear it's pointless talking to you about anything Limerick related. Best of luck, I hope one day you manage to have that Limerick shaped chip removed from your shoulder.

dzer2 · 18-08-2014 12:57pm

Jasus dont look at Leinsters record if you take Kilkenny out.

blue note · 18-08-2014 12:57pm

It's a crazy stat, but clearly winning Munster is of little advantage to a team. I think it's a combination of investing so much in winning Munster and the long lay off. The majority of times they're knocked out by another Munster team anyway!

On the contrast with the Leinster Champions I'd make two points. Firstly, they don't have to invest as much in the championship. They can still win it while aiming to peak for August / September. Secondly, Kilkenny were just ridiculously good for the last decade. If they under-perform in a semi final, they'll still probably win.

zombieHanalei · 18-08-2014 1:04pm

dzer2 wrote: »

Jasus dont look at Leinsters record if you take Kilkenny out.

From looking at it, if you take Kilkenny out I have found that performance in the provincial championships has absolutely no bearing on performance in the All-Ireland series.

Teams that come through the qualifiers, Munster champions, Munster runners up all have a fairly identical win rate (about 40%) in the All-Ireland series. The Leinster champion and runner up have closer to 33%.

Kilkenny of course are the exception to the rule.

Amprodude · 18-08-2014 1:05pm

zombieHanalei wrote: »

They were good enough for you to predict a certain victory for them against Limerick.

And Tipperary? Put two past them, one more than Cork managed yesterday.

Actually, never mind. It's pretty clear it's pointless talking to you about anything Limerick related. Best of luck, I hope one day you manage to have that Limerick shaped chip removed from your shoulder.

Conceded 2 goals against the poor Cork team also. I hope Limerick win it one day but unfortuntely they are as close to winning it as New York have of doing so. Hope reality doesnt bite you in the backside. Best of luck.

megadodge · 18-08-2014 1:11pm

Amprodude wrote: »

Conceded 2 goals against the poor Cork team also. I hope Limerick win it one day but unfortuntely they are as close to winning it as New York have of doing so. Hope reality doesnt bite you in the backside. Best of luck.

Wow!!!

The mind boggles.

zombieHanalei · 18-08-2014 1:11pm

dzer2 wrote: »

Jasus dont look at Leinsters record if you take Kilkenny out.

I posted this in a different thread a few months back, it's been updated to include this years AI games. Record in AI series.

Team(s)|Played|Won|Drawn|Lost|Win %|AI Champions
Leinster Champion|26|20|1|5|76.9%|7
All-Ireland Qualifier|64|28|5|31|43.8%|3*
Munster Runner-Up|19|8|1|10|42.1%|0*
Munster Champion|23|9|2|12|39.1%|1
Leinster Runner-Up|15|5|1|9|33.3%|1
Ulster Champion|3|0|0|3|0%|0

*Note; Cork won the All-Ireland in 2004 as Munster runner-up, however from 2002-2004 Munster and Leinster runners up did not qualify automatically for the All-Ireland series, so they are counted as a qualifier in 2004.

Rightwing · 18-08-2014 4:11pm

I think the above just states that KK have been well ahead of everyone else. Tipp next best and it's been a free for all after that.

Fireball07 · 18-08-2014 7:01pm

I suppose you can't argue with the stats, and KK probably distort the stats because they were just so good but I think it's a bit of an excuse tbh.

I think the gap should be shortened, but if a team is good enough, they will go through. I don't think the gap can take the blame for the complete non-performance of the Munster champions in the last 3 years.

Fr Tod Umptious · 18-08-2014 7:25pm

zombieHanalei wrote: »

........however I do think it could be suggested that this raises question marks over how teams prepare when faced with a 4+ week period...

Surely OP it raises questions rather than just the question marks ?

dirtyden · 18-08-2014 7:34pm

I don't think there is anything in the stat. Limerick lost last year to the team that won the all Ireland, tipp in 2012 to the team that won the all irealnd. 2011 Tipp won munster and semi. in 2010 Tipp beat munster champions and won final. In 2009 tipp won munster and semi. So looking at it this way either the munster champions won their semi or lost to the eventual all ireland winners in each of the last 5 years.

Its one of those stats that taken out of context looks startling but in reality they just lost to better teams. It is also a fact that provincial finals have been devalued slightly by the back door, where some teams will be gearing as much towards august as the first week of july.

Grats · 19-08-2014 6:55pm

Was at the game on Sunday and it appeared to me that Cork were completely flat. I put it down to not managing the five week break very well. The players looked over trained. They were last to practically every breaking ball, first touch awful, contesting puck outs was deplorable, no intensity or aggression. They were tired physically and mentally. Remember Cork haven't experienced a five week break since back around 2006. Of course their management team would have been fully confident that they were managing the break but they clearly didn't.

The fact that there were so few frees in the game is an indication of the lack of intensity, aggression, passion etc. Cork don't have the players due to lack of success at underage but on the day you would have expected them to play with more conviction.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2014 10:26pm

I think being new champions has an adverse effect in fairness. People would think Cork are different because its Cork but thats not realistic.

I think to some degree that Cork maybe enjoyed their success too much, its been a long time and the hunger died a little bit. Leinster's mean nothing to KK at this stage by and large, but it's 8 years since Cork won anything, and most of those lads had no success underage either. I also think Tipp are still the best team in Munster.

Grats · 19-08-2014 11:25pm

People might think Cork are different. Cork might think they themselves are different. But what Cork had going for them this year was the experience from been in two All Ireland Finals last year.

I suggested that they may have over trained during the five weeks. I also think that they are very limited as a panel. JBM did exceptionally well to get what he got from this group of players. I'm not sure he would have made such an effort to use dual players had he had quality players to chose over the dual players.

If the championship structures are to be reviewed it has to include scenarios such as those experienced by Wexford and Galway this year. Would Wexford have collapsed so badly against Limerick had they got a break? Similarly with Galway, they had to face Tipp in Semple Stadium having come through two tough games against Kilkenny in the previous two weeks in very hot conditions.

Most of the focus is on the Cork collapse while other equally deserving issues such as those mentioned were been ignored.

Orizio · 20-08-2014 6:19am

Grats wrote: »

People might think Cork are different. Cork might think they themselves are different. But what Cork had going for them this year was the experience from been in two All Ireland Finals last year.

I suggested that they may have over trained during the five weeks. I also think that they are very limited as a panel. JBM did exceptionally well to get what he got from this group of players. I'm not sure he would have made such an effort to use dual players had he had quality players to chose over the dual players.

If the championship structures are to be reviewed it has to include scenarios such as those experienced by Wexford and Galway this year. Would Wexford have collapsed so badly against Limerick had they got a break? Similarly with Galway, they had to face Tipp in Semple Stadium having come through two tough games against Kilkenny in the previous two weeks in very hot conditions.

Most of the focus is on the Cork collapse while other equally deserving issues such as those mentioned were been ignored.

Possibly they got a bit cocky after winning Munster, and went in a little half-cooked mentally. They played like a team completely unaware as to what they were facing.

In saying all that even if they had played somewhere close to potential, I think the Tipp's were going to be too physical and too powerful for us whatever the situation.

And you are entirely correct about how limited the panel is, the bench is far weaker then people think.

Grats · 20-08-2014 8:42am

Orizio wrote: »

Possibly they got a bit cocky after winning Munster, and went in a little half-cooked mentally. They played like a team completely unaware as to what they were facing.

In saying all that even if they had played somewhere close to potential, I think the Tipp's were going to be too physical and too powerful for us whatever the situation.

And you are entirely correct about how limited the panel is, the bench is far weaker then people think.[/QUOTE
Honest assessment. The biggest surprise now is that it appears Cork people have only just become aware of the neglect of hurling in Leeside. Donal O'Grady wrote an article on the subject some years ago and now we have Donal Og Cusack's outburst. Ultimately though just stating the obvious.

Munster hurling champion record in AI series

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