Getting a second dog

abutler101

Hi. We are thinking of getting a second dog for a couple of reasons and I am just looking for suggestions for what breed/general type of dog to get.

We want another dog because we are not at home as much as we used to and can't spend as much time with our dog as we would like to, so we think getting Max(our current dog, a short legged jrt) a friend so he won't be as lonely during the day. When school starts back there will be nobody at home from 9 until 3. We also want another dog to keep a rabbit problem under control, Max used to kill any rabbit that came into the garden but he is getting older now and just isn't able to catch them anymore, so being able to catch rabbits is a pretty big priority as we have a big vegetable garden that we rely on for food. When I say catch rabbits though I don't mean as a gundog but as one that will catch them by themselves in the garden i.e a good prey drive.

I also think it is important to add that Max wasn't very well socialized as a puppy, it was completely our fault as we didn't know it was so important. We have been working on it for the last couple of years, bringing him to dog walks and small local pet shows and he is getting much better but still isn't 100% at home. For that reason we were thinking it would be better to get a bitch of a breed that is slightly bigger than him.

Our situation is as follows. We have a big garden (1.5 acres) that they will have almost complete access to for the whole day. It is planted heavily with lots of hedges going across the garden breaking up any straight running paths. They are/will be outside dogs except for the occasional evening when we let Max lie on the sofa with us watching tv, but I don't think that impacts on the breed choice too much. We currently bring Max on a short walk for around 30 minutes every morning and a long walk every weekend (around 2 hours usually) and don't want to change that routine very much. We want a medium sized dog, roughly border collie size but a bit bigger or smaller wouldn't be too much of a worry. Extra food and other costs won't be a problem. There are a couple of breeds that we don't like or can't get for legal reasons; like sight hounds, any dogs listed as dangerous dogs, nothing that needs lots of grooming like a poodle or setters because be have lots of hens and they just don't go well.

I am just looking for suggestions on what breed or type of dog (we would take a mutt if we knew its parentage) would work well in our situation and would do what we need it to do.

Thanks.

P.S, please no suggestions like go to a shelter and ask to see if they have suitable dogs. We will be going to look at dogs in rescues but we want to know what kind of dog we are looking for first.

SingItOut

Before you think of getting another dog you are going to have to address your current dogs lack of socialisation skills. Simply putting a new dog with him is not only dangerous but unfair to him and the other dog. You either need to start re training him or enlist the help of a trainer who will come to your house. If he is bad with other dogs taking him to a group class might escalate his problem.

You say you don't want a dog that will chase hens yet you want a dog that will kill rabbits? That makes no sense, apart from being cruel. Also there is no such thing as a dangerous breed of dog, any dog can be aggressive, they all have different personalities. It is up to you the owner to socialise and train your dog not to be aggressive. If you are going down the puppy route it would simply be unfair to leave it alone for 6 hours a day with your unsocialised dog. I own a border collie cross breed and terrier and 30 minutes per day walking them just would not keep them stimulated. They get a 5 mile walk/run every evening and get a run offlead in the mornings every morning.

_Brian

Brilliant idea.
Your not at home enough to give one dog enough attention so the solution is to get another dog !!

We meet folks like yourselves out walking most weekends with one or two dogs that have been on their own all week and act like freshly uncaged wolves when they are out !

Well done !

lulu1

Are you sure you're dog would want another dog in the house and especially if he's getting older. We have a 4 year old dog and the same as you and had very little contact with other dogs. In fact if a friend came with her dog ours would run into the house and not come out. Thankfully its ok now. Op I would think carefully about getting another dog. What if they didnt get on and no one in the house all day to keep an eye on them.

Toulouse

OP, I don't think another dog is what you need. There are a number of situations that you have listed that could get a new dog into difficulty and with nobody home for such long periods and school starting in only 2 weeks it's not a good idea IMO.

Rabbit proof your garden and look into a dog walking service or a neighbour to call in. That way Max gets out and about during the day which breaks it up for him.

DBB

_Brian wrote: »

Brilliant idea.
Your not at home enough to give one dog enough attention so the solution is to get another dog !!

We meet folks like yourselves out walking most weekends with one or two dogs that have been on their own all week and act like freshly uncaged wolves when they are out !

Well done !

_Brian, addressing the op in this way is not constructive and very argumentative.
Two posts below yours, Toulouse made the same point as you, but without the sarcasm and in a way that the op might be more inclined to listen to.
Please respect other posters. You might not agree with them, and that's okay. But addressing others in this sarcastic tone is not on.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

abutler101

@SingIt Out, we have been working on socialization for the last two years, I said it in the post. He is perfect when outside the house, he just gets a little bit territorial when in the garden but when friends bring over their dogs and they are there for a while so Max gets used to them and then they get along fine, we just think a bitch might be better because they won't be as territorial as a dog. We have our hens in secure pens that dogs can't get into but occasionally they escape and we need to catch them. With max we can catch him and put him in his run, but with a spaniel or setter there would be no hope of that. When. I say dangerous bred of dog I mean one that are listed in the regulation that must be muzzled and walked by someone over 18, I would be the one walking them and I am 14 so breeds like rotries and gsd we can't get because of that. Border collies are working dogs they need a lot of stimulation compared to most breeds, and I don't know your situation but Max spends most of his day running around the garden anyway so he doesn't need as long a walk as say a dog living in an estate. We aren't going to get a puppy either.

@_brian, if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say please don't say anything.

@lulu1, yes we are sure we want another dog. I forgot to mention this in the original post but Max loves being with other dogs, really loves it when we take him out to dog walks or other places to meet dogs. We won't just be getting another dog in the next two weeks. Introducing them will be a long process, for the first 2-3 meet ups it will be on neutral territory and when we finally bring the new dog home we will organize for a neighbor to check on them a couple of times a day while we aren't home.

@Toulouse, What situations do you see being problematic? It would be impossible to rabbit proof our garden. Around twice during the week max already goes up the woods with a retired couple that live down the road and their dogs, we try and break up the day as much as possible for him, but we still think he would be better off with a friend.

Could anyone please answer my original question, I have done a little research myself and I think something along the lines of an Irish terrier or fox terrier might suit us but I'm not sure about their temperament.

thanks.

muddypaws

abutler101 wrote: »

Border collies are working dogs they need a lot of stimulation compared to most breeds, and I don't know your situation but Max spends most of his day running around the garden anyway so he doesn't need as long a walk as say a dog living in an estate. We aren't going to get a puppy either.

Could anyone please answer my original question, I have done a little research myself and I think something along the lines of an Irish terrier or fox terrier might suit us but I'm not sure about their temperament.

thanks.

Terriers are also working dogs, and would be the same as border collies. Not wishing to get into an argument with you, but if nobody is home during the day, how do you know that he spends most of his day running around the garden? I have working dogs, and they spend most of their day asleep, even though they have unlimited access to about an acre around the house. Walks aren't just about exercise for dogs, its also about mental stimulation.

fiounnalbe

Hi OP, I know you said not to tell you to go to a rescue and ask but to be honest it would probably be the easiest thing!

I know you want a breed that might help keep rabbits at bay (but having two dogs in the garden is probably a big enough deterrent anyway imo.) but the most important thing here is Max and that he gets on really well with the dog so that they do become friends and company for each other...so ultimately while you research breeds away when you get to the rescue theres a very high probability you will end up coming home with something completely different as it will basically be Max's choice as to which dogs personality he gels to best!

Well thats been my experience in the past anyway, twice we have gone to pounds/shelters with a breed in mind and twice we've come home with something completely different because our dog got on better with them than the breed we had researched!

Toulouse

abutler101 wrote: »

@Toulouse, What situations do you see being problematic? It would be impossible to rabbit proof our garden. Around twice during the week max already goes up the woods with a retired couple that live down the road and their dogs, we try and break up the day as much as possible for him, but we still think he would be better off with a friend.

Could anyone please answer my original question, I have done a little research myself and I think something along the lines of an Irish terrier or fox terrier might suit us but I'm not sure about their temperament.

thanks.

I get the impression that unless someone agrees with what you want to do then you will think that we are not answering your question. Have you thought that perhaps based on the information you have given us that there is a reason that nobody can recommend a dog for you? I am trying to bear in mind that you are 14 but most of the people who are replying to you on this thread have extensive knowledge of dogs whose owners have had unfair expectations of them and IMO it's the dog that pays the price.

Impossible to rabbit proof 1.5 acres? It really isn't. If your garden is not rabbit proof then it probably isn't terrier proof either. You've mentioned that Max has a run, is he able to escape from the garden in that case?

A female is not more likely to be less territorial than a male, you should see my female! But if you are going ahead with this then getting a female is the better option, just don't forget to neuter.

You want a working dog with a prey drive that will kill your rabbits but will leave your hens, that do escape occasionally, alone? Not likely to happen I'm afraid.

You are leaning towards a young terrier but aren't willing to walk more than 30 mins a day. Having a large run does not make up for the mental stimulation that a dog gets from a structured on-lead walk. Max is older so perhaps you have forgotten how much energy a young terrier has.

Sleeping outdoors will be a big no no with any reputable shelter. I'm not getting into rights and wrongs here, merely letting you know that sleeping indoors is often part of the rehoming criteria. And I really would recommend going with a reputable rescue as you could easily need back up.

Max already goes for walks with a neighbour a couple of days a week, could this be made a regular thing on days where you will be gone for more than 6 hours? If Max is getting a walk in the morning and he's an older dog then 6 hours alone 3 days a week would be okay with me. It's only if he's outside all day and then left outside on his own all evening and night as well that I would have a problem with it. Another dog is not a substitute for human company and should not be used as such.

abutler101

muddypaws wrote: »

Terriers are also working dogs, and would be the same as border collies. Not wishing to get into an argument with you, but if nobody is home during the day, how do you know that he spends most of his day running around the garden? I have working dogs, and they spend most of their day asleep, even though they have unlimited access to about an acre around the house. Walks aren't just about exercise for dogs, its also about mental stimulation.

I know most terriers would be working dogs but it isn't really the same as a collie who would be working for several hours most days of the week as opposed to a terrier who would be brought out to hunt for an hour or two 1-2 a week. We know he spends most of the day wandering around through the garden because that's what we see him do on Saturdays and everyday through the holidays and we have had neighbors tell us they have seen him do that during the day too. On top of the walks I probably should have said as well that we do agility with Max, nothing competition standard but we practice for a half an hour a day. Mostly jumps and ramps because he just won't do tunnels. I didn't mention it because I thought people might have thought we wanted another dog to do the same. As well as that we always play games with him and get him to do tricks. We give him lots of stimulation.

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Hi OP, I know you said not to tell you to go to a rescue and ask but to be honest it would probably be the easiest thing!

I know you want a breed that might help keep rabbits at bay (but having two dogs in the garden is probably a big enough deterrent anyway imo.) but the most important thing here is Max and that he gets on really well with the dog so that they do become friends and company for each other...so ultimately while you research breeds away when you get to the rescue theres a very high probability you will end up coming home with something completely different as it will basically be Max's choice as to which dogs personality he gels to best!

Well thats been my experience in the past anyway, twice we have gone to pounds/shelters with a breed in mind and twice we've come home with something completely different because our dog got on better with them than the breed we had researched!

Thanks for the advice, I just want to have an idea of what would work well with us. The rescue we have in mind takes great care of their dogs and they are very good at placing dogs in homes but they aren't the best at looking at the bigger picture. A family friend got a dog from them a few months ago and asked for one that would get on with small animals and the dog they got attacked their sat within hours of getting home.

Toulouse wrote: »

I get the impression that unless someone agrees with what you want to do then you will think that we are not answering your question. Have you thought that perhaps based on the information you have given us that there is a reason that nobody can recommend a dog for you? I am trying to bear in mind that you are 14 but most of the people who are replying to you on this thread have extensive knowledge of dogs whose owners have had unfair expectations of them and IMO it's the dog that pays the price.

Impossible to rabbit proof 1.5 acres? It really isn't. If your garden is not rabbit proof then it probably isn't terrier proof either. You've mentioned that Max has a run, is he able to escape from the garden in that case?

A female is not more likely to be less territorial than a male, you should see my female! But if you are going ahead with this then getting a female is the better option, just don't forget to neuter.

You want a working dog with a prey drive that will kill your rabbits but will leave your hens, that do escape occasionally, alone? Not likely to happen I'm afraid.

You are leaning towards a young terrier but aren't willing to walk more than 30 mins a day. Having a large run does not make up for the mental stimulation that a dog gets from a structured on-lead walk. Max is older so perhaps you have forgotten how much energy a young terrier has.

Sleeping outdoors will be a big no no with any reputable shelter. I'm not getting into rights and wrongs here, merely letting you know that sleeping indoors is often part of the rehoming criteria. And I really would recommend going with a reputable rescue as you could easily need back up.

Max already goes for walks with a neighbour a couple of days a week, could this be made a regular thing on days where you will be gone for more than 6 hours? If Max is getting a walk in the morning and he's an older dog then 6 hours alone 3 days a week would be okay with me. It's only if he's outside all day and then left outside on his own all evening and night as well that I would have a problem with it. Another dog is not a substitute for human company and should not be used as such.

Thanks for your response, but I have only asked for recommendations of what kind of dog to get and most of what I got back was people telling me my family and I don't look after our dog properly. We take very good care of Max and we do believe our family and Max are in a good position for another dog. I have said that I would rather not walk more than 30 minutes in the morning but I haven't said that I am completely unwilling. When Max was younger, he got walked 4 miles twice a day but he just isn't able for that anymore and it would be difficult to walk 2 dogs separately everyday but we could do it if it was needed.

No it wouldn't be impossible to rabbit proof 1.5 acres but in our case it would cost at least 5 thousand to do it. About 150 trees would need to be uprooted so that 200 meters of trench could be dug to bury wire and then re plant all hedges and put up the fences again. The garden is dog proof, the rabbits are digging under the fence. I don't quite understand your second question but yes Max has a run but he is rarely put in it anymore, only when my parents friends with smaller children come over, not that Max would do anything that are just a bit paranoid.

Yes of course we would get it spayed, we do not want puppies! Max is neutered too but we would always be on the safe side.

To be honest we are a bit spoiled with Max he killed rabbits and left the hens alone most of the time (he has killed a few but not many). I'm not saying that the dog would have to leave the hens alone, just that they are little bit more controllable than a setter when they do escape. Even the most well trained setters that I have come across go mad when there is an easy target around. We have dog-sit a friends cocker spaniel and it was a disaster when the hens escaped (it is not a regular thing but it happened then and we lost about 5 of my best)

I think I have already answered this concern earlier in the post, but it would be possible to walk for longer if it was needed, but we give Max stimulation in lots of other ways too.

The shelter we have in mind was a bit skeptical about having a dog sleep outdoors but we have gotten the all clear as He doesn't really sleep outdoors. He sleeps in the garage, which is insulated and as warm as the house.

Yes, it might be possible to make it a more regular thing but I will have to ask them if it would be possible first. I know another dog isn't a substitute for human attention but I know Max would benefit from a friend, he just lights up when he meets other dogs. I think he needs the friend more during the night than during the day.

Toulouse

There is not one post here telling you that you and your family don't look after your dog properly. Just posts telling you that another dog may not fit into your requirements. We can only go on what you tell us.

Anyway, you keep moving the goalposts so I've said my bit. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. If you have a good local rescue as you said then they will be more than able to point you in the right direction.