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Bias in leaving Cert English rechecks.

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  • 14-08-2014 1:30am
    #1
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭


    Say the person checking your paper finishes reading an essay, before he comes up with your grade it is likely he will look at what the previous corrector gave you, which will skew his grade much closer to what it was before.

    Surely this must be why the English re checks are usually consistent with the previous grade.

    However if you were to run a blind test on markers I'm sure the scores would vary a lot more than what the SEC advertises.

    Isn't this unfair on the student?


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    #2
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,275 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Based on 'what you're sure of'?

    Recheck didn't go your way....?

    ;)


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    #3
    gugleguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭gugleguy


    The mood the rechecker is in.
    Right answer OP?


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    #4
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    endacl wrote: »
    Based on 'what you're sure of'?

    Recheck didn't go your way....?

    ;)

    Based on the same principle as Implicit personality theory. I'm "sure" because a blind test removes the source of bias.


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    #5
    yoyojc
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭yoyojc


    anones1012 wrote: »
    Based on the same principle as Implicit personality theory. I'm "sure" because a blind test removes the source of bias.

    I completely agree with your theory, I've often thought it. A re-check should not have the grades and markings clear... it's not fair.


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    #6
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    yoyojc wrote: »
    I completely agree with your theory, I've often thought it. A re-check should not have the grades and markings clear... it's not fair.

    For something like Math or physics I wouldn't imagine it would make a huge difference. In English It would probably stops grade changes.


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    #7
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1009/479226-leaving-cert-education/


    Higher Level English is the subject most likely to be appealed and 12% of those that queried their result got upgrades.



    Have you ever considered OP that some people don't deserve an upgrade? Loads of students send back papers without ever looking at them, or do look at them and use the highly rational argument :rolleyes: 'I think my answer deserves more marks' rather than comparing their answer with what the marking scheme states.

    Some students send back their papers because they are one or two marks off the next grade and assume the appeal examiner will find them a few marks to pull them into the next grade band. That's not what appeals are about.


    I view scripts with my students every year at their request. They get say a C3 in the exam (not English) and they tell me 'Oh i thought I did better than that' and we start reading the answers and it becomes clear that they waffle all around the point and never actually get to it in a lot of their answers.

    They start to realise that the fact that the wrote two pages for an answer that needed three lines and they got no marks is because they didn't write any of the information that was required.

    Now, sometimes there are ground for an appeal. Addition mistakes can happen, something is given no marks where it deserves some according to the scheme - examiners are human, they can make mistakes, but if it was the case that if everyone sent back an exam and got an upgrade it would suggest that the corrections process wasn't carried out properly in the first place. And that's not the case.

    One of the English teachers was in yesterday when I was looking at the results in my school and he was commenting on three students that had passed English in his class with Ds. The students in question came out of the exam in June and were discussing the paper with other students and it became clear that they answered one of the questions on the completely wrong play/character/poem (don't remember the details). You can be damn sure they weren't the only ones that did that. So students that get miffed when they get no marks often don't get them because simply what they wrote is wrong.


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    #8
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    "Have you ever considered OP that some people don't deserve an upgrade? Loads of students send back papers without ever looking at them, or do look at them and use the highly rational argument :rolleyes: 'I think my answer deserves more marks' rather than comparing their answer with what the marking scheme states.

    Some students send back their papers because they are one or two marks off the next grade and assume the appeal examiner will find them a few marks to pull them into the next grade band. That's not what appeals are about.


    I view scripts with my students every year at their request. They get say a C3 in the exam (not English) and they tell me 'Oh i thought I did better than that' and we start reading the answers and it becomes clear that they waffle all around the point and never actually get to it in a lot of their answers.

    They start to realise that the fact that the wrote two pages for an answer that needed three lines and they got no marks is because they didn't write any of the information that was required.

    Now, sometimes there are ground for an appeal. Addition mistakes can happen, something is given no marks where it deserves some according to the scheme - examiners are human, they can make mistakes, but if it was the case that if everyone sent back an exam and got an upgrade it would suggest that the corrections process wasn't carried out properly in the first place. And that's not the case.

    One of the English teachers was in yesterday when I was looking at the results in my school and he was commenting on three students that had passed English in his class with Ds. The students in question came out of the exam in June and were discussing the paper with other students and it became clear that they answered one of the questions on the completely wrong play/character/poem (don't remember the details). You can be damn sure they weren't the only ones that did that. So students that get miffed when they get no marks often don't get them because simply what they wrote is wrong."

    I would agree that in English if you are wrong you are wrong.
    However for Higher grades such as B's and A's it is more about how well the student got his point across and how clear and concise the points being made are, which can be highly subjective.

    Some people might pick up a book and love it while others might think its absolute garbage.

    I am making the point that if exams were rechecked without the old corrections on them the grades would vary a lot more. If this is not the case as others have argued there should be no problem with the old marks being excluded.


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    #9
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    anones1012 wrote: »

    I am making the point that if exams were rechecked without the old corrections on them the grades would vary a lot more. If this is not the case as others have argued there should be no problem with the old marks being excluded.

    How do you suggest they do this? Get out the Tippex and ink rubbers?


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    #10
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    I can see it now, down in the bowels of the SEC building there are a load of elves furiously tippexing out marks on 50,000 English papers :D


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    #11
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I can see it now, down in the bowels of the SEC building there are a load of elves furiously tippexing out marks on 50,000 English papers :D

    While the crowds rant about how long rechecks are taking and where are the JC results.


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    #12
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    spurious wrote: »
    How do you suggest they do this? Get out the Tippex and ink rubbers?

    They are given a sheet of paper, write the pclm of answered questions on it and any other notes.


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    #13
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    anones1012 wrote: »
    They are given a sheet of paper, write the pclm of answered questions on it and any other notes.

    A piece of paper for every script?

    The marks are put on the actual scripts, otherwise marks on bits of paper would be lost all over the place during the various journeys scripts make during the marking process.

    The marks on the scripts also mark for which points the marks are being given.


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    #14
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    anones1012 wrote: »
    They are given a sheet of paper, write the pclm of answered questions on it and any other notes.

    Marks for all subjects are written in the margin beside the answer in your answerbook.

    If it was done on a separate sheet of paper, there would be way more errors in transcribing marks.


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    #15
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    spurious wrote: »
    A piece of paper for every script?

    The marks are put on the actual scripts, otherwise marks on bits of paper would be lost all over the place during the various journeys scripts make during the marking process.

    The marks on the scripts also mark for which points the marks are being given.

    For English not for subjects where marks are going all over the place, I really doubt they would be lost with the security of the sec.


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    #16
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    anones1012 wrote: »
    For English not for subjects where marks are going all over the place, I really doubt they would be lost with the security of the sec.

    How would you attach them to the papers?
    What if two fall off in the bag?

    It's not workable under the current system and it creates another layer of opportunity for errors.


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    #17
    anones1012
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭anones1012


    spurious wrote: »
    How would you attach them to the papers?
    What if two fall off in the bag?

    It's not workable under the current system and it creates another layer of opportunity for errors.

    Cao number on correction sheets, all sheets are collected and grades applied, I really see no problem?


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    #18
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    anones1012 wrote: »
    Cao number on correction sheets, all sheets are collected and grades applied, I really see no problem?

    I see major problems. I've already had one of my students upgraded this morning from a C1 to an A1 because their final grade was incorrectly transcribed from the front of their answerbook to the sheet where all the candidates marks are input. Human errors do happen.

    If an examiner has to do this for every part of a question for English (already a lengthy exam to correct), it takes way longer to correct a paper, mistakes will be made in rushing to his deadlines , but also the more marks that have to be transcribed the greater the risk of a mistake being made in transcription, leading to more errors overall.

    What we have actually works very well.


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    #19
    Louisew97
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Louisew97


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I see major problems. I've already had one of my students upgraded this morning from a C1 to an A1 because their final grade was incorrectly transcribed from the front of their answerbook to the sheet where all the candidates marks are input. Human errors do happen.

    If an examiner has to do this for every part of a question for English (already a lengthy exam to correct), it takes way longer to correct a paper, mistakes will be made in rushing to his deadlines , but also the more marks that have to be transcribed the greater the risk of a mistake being made in transcription, leading to more errors overall.

    What we have actually works very well.

    hi! just wondering how this student contacted the SEC? I read on another thread that a guy emailed the sec and got an E changed to an A1 due to the same thing as said person. I was really shocked with my C1 in english this year, I had been really going for an A2 , got a B1 in the mocks and thought both papers went well. I will view my scripts and appeal anyway, but would you suggest trying to get in contact with SEC otherwise?
    Thanks, Louise.


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    #20
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Louisew97 wrote: »
    hi! just wondering how this student contacted the SEC? I read on another thread that a guy emailed the sec and got an E changed to an A1 due to the same thing as said person. I was really shocked with my C1 in english this year, I had been really going for an A2 , got a B1 in the mocks and thought both papers went well. I will view my scripts and appeal anyway, but would you suggest trying to get in contact with SEC otherwise?
    Thanks, Louise.

    we emailed entries@examinations.ie

    I got the impression that they check clerical errors within 24 hours of the results being released but after that it's left to the viewings. Someone else posted on the LC thread yesterday who emailed yesterday afternoon and was told no, it was too late. I assume this is because grades have been sent to the CAO for first round offers and scripts are being packed up to send to schools so they have to draw a line somewhere. At this stage it's too late to make a difference to your first round offer so it's no harm to email but I suspect you will be told to wait until you can view the script the weekend of the 29th.


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