DART frequencies

markpb

I'm contemplating moving house soon and found a place I like beside Clongriffin dart station. I lived on the Dart line years ago and gave up on it because the frequencies were pretty poor and because of the big gaps between some trains. Now, almost ten years later, I'm looking at the Dart time timetable (between Clongriffin and Blackrock) and I'm shocked at how poor it is for an urban train system.

In the morning, the first train isn't until 6:37, then half hour gaps for a while. There are only 3 trains at 10 minute intervals, 2 at 15 minute intervals and then, at 8:30 it's a half hour between trains. The evenings are worse with 20, 25 and 30 minute intervals between 5:30 and 7:30.

This means there are only 2 trains between 8 and 9 and 3 between 5:30 and 6:30. If that's not a peak period, what is?

Maybe I've been spoiled by living on the Luas Green line for the last three years but this is piss poor.

discus

That's shocking, I never realised it was that bad :eek:

Captain Chaos

That's just the way it is because on the main line after howth junction the DARTs are sharing a 2 track line with Commuter and Enterprise trains with very limited turn back space/capacity at Malahide. Only way around it is to 4 track the Northern line to Malahide at least and than cannot be done. The best DART service is between Howth Junction and Bray, frequency wise. I lived at Clongriffin for a year the the DART service is very poor and even wore on weekends. The service could be improved if they took full advantage of the northern passing loop at Clongriffin and actually bothered to build the south bound one after making provisions for it. This would allow more DARTs wile allowing Commuter and Enterprise trains to over take if timetabled properly.

The 15 bus service is good and will get you into the city centre but takes a good bit more time than the DART.

Atlantic Dawn

Take a look at the Intercity trains too, some do stop at Clongriffin, might be another option.

Aard

Dart frequencies are indeed shocking. I was designing a "frequent routes" map for Dublin a while back (i.e. every 15 mins or better for most of the day), and was struggling to justify inclusion of the Dart. Many bus routes easily offer a better service.

markpb

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Take a look at the Intercity trains too, some do stop at Clongriffin, might be another option.

I had a look at the timetable when I was there yesterday and suburban trains stopping there are few and far between. The times I put in the first post are *all* trains stopping there.

The 15 seems like a better choice (for frequency) but it's far too slow. DB are suggesting an hour to get to the other side of the city centre and, at that point, I still have to get to Sandyford. I think I'll keep looking.

n97 mini

Try the Maynooth line. Amazing that a city centre station like Drumcondra can have a service once an hour and last service is before 9pm on Sundays.

Was in London (again) recently. Frequent services, *that connect* with other services, with stacks of customer information ("Good service on all lines" regularly announced). Reminded me of just how ****ty rail is in Dublin.

GerardKeating

n97 mini wrote: »

Try the Maynooth line. Amazing that a city centre station like Drumcondra can have a service once an hour and last service is before 9pm on Sundays.

Was in London (again) recently. Frequent services, *that connect* with other services, with stacks of customer information ("Good service on all lines" regularly announced). Reminded me of just how ****ty rail is in Dublin.

A while back, it was in Germany, a friend was complaining that her local rail service was reduced to every 30 minutes








after 2am until 6am.

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

I'm contemplating moving house soon and found a place I like beside Clongriffin dart station. I lived on the Dart line years ago and gave up on it because the frequencies were pretty poor and because of the big gaps between some trains. Now, almost ten years later, I'm looking at the Dart time timetable (between Clongriffin and Blackrock) and I'm shocked at how poor it is for an urban train system.

In the morning, the first train isn't until 6:37, then half hour gaps for a while. There are only 3 trains at 10 minute intervals, 2 at 15 minute intervals and then, at 8:30 it's a half hour between trains. The evenings are worse with 20, 25 and 30 minute intervals between 5:30 and 7:30.

This means there are only 2 trains between 8 and 9 and 3 between 5:30 and 6:30. If that's not a peak period, what is?

Maybe I've been spoiled by living on the Luas Green line for the last three years but this is piss poor.

Luas Green line is 12-15min frequency south of Sandyford off-peak, DART is 15min Howth Jn - Bray off peak.

The stations on both branches north of Howth Jn get a bad deal and Clongriffin particularly so as it is served by less Northern commuter services than Portmarnock and Malahide.

This was inevitable after the extension to Malahide and the service being split with the Howth Branch. IMO Howth-Howth Jct should be operated as a shuttle with all through electrics running to Malahide. Problem is that without turnback and stabling sidings off the running lines at Malahide that cannot happen.

thomasj

n97 mini wrote: »

Try the Maynooth line. Amazing that a city centre station like Drumcondra can have a service once an hour and last service is before 9pm on Sundays.

Was in London (again) recently. Frequent services, *that connect* with other services, with stacks of customer information ("Good service on all lines" regularly announced). Reminded me of just how ****ty rail is in Dublin.

And level crossing removal works that they claim would boost services is now on hold until end of 2018 at the earliest.

LVs exact words in a letter to local residents is that it will be well into the next decade (looks like a typo should be century!!!) before we see a dart service on the maynooth line.

xOxSinéadxOx

n97 mini wrote: »

Try the Maynooth line. Amazing that a city centre station like Drumcondra can have a service once an hour and last service is before 9pm on Sundays.

Was in London (again) recently. Frequent services, *that connect* with other services, with stacks of customer information ("Good service on all lines" regularly announced). Reminded me of just how ****ty rail is in Dublin.

Drumcondra train station isn't very usable. I live in Drumcondra and if I need to use the DART I cycle to Connolly. :pac:

SandyfordGuy

I occasionally use Drumcondra and it's nothing to write home about, but for example if you are getting the 40/B/D it can be a useful interchange for DART as a few of the commuter trains connect with north and southbound darts, and knock a short amount off your commute time over going into the city centre and walking to Connolly or Tara Street for instance.

Cool Mo D

Vic_08 wrote: »

Luas Green line is 12-15min frequency south of Sandyford off-peak, DART is 15min Howth Jn - Bray off peak.

The stations on both branches north of Howth Jn get a bad deal and Clongriffin particularly so as it is served by less Northern commuter services than Portmarnock and Malahide.

This was inevitable after the extension to Malahide and the service being split with the Howth Branch. IMO Howth-Howth Jct should be operated as a shuttle with all through electrics running to Malahide. Problem is that without turnback and stabling sidings off the running lines at Malahide that cannot happen.

There is no reason that 4 DARTs an hour can't terminate to Malahide. There are a maximum of 4 trains an hour coming from north of Malahide, and they can pass through Malahide on either track. If a DART is waiting on the southbound platform, a southbound commuter train can switch to at the northbound platform on approach to the station and overtake it, before switching back immediately after - the track and points to do this are already there.

With a little timetabling, commuter trains can overtake at Malahide for a fairly clear run to Connolly, which would be better for everyone.

end of the road

Cool Mo D wrote: »

There is no reason that 4 DARTs an hour can't terminate to Malahide. There are a maximum of 4 trains an hour coming from north of Malahide, and they can pass through Malahide on either track. If a DART is waiting on the southbound platform, a southbound commuter train can switch to at the northbound platform on approach to the station and overtake it, before switching back immediately after - the track and points to do this are already there.

With a little timetabling, commuter trains can overtake at Malahide for a fairly clear run to Connolly, which would be better for everyone.

absolutely, but that would mean IE waking up and deviating from the idea that "dart gets priority over everything" which isn't going to happen

bikeman1

The problem at Malahide currently is that there is only one crossover to the North of the station, which allows up trains (to Dublin) overtake a DART on the up Platform.

If you have a DART on the down platform (platform 2) and a train is to overtake it (heading North), it can't do it. The only way around is to run the DART into the quarry siding. This then adds about 8-10 minutes to the turnaround and hey presto, your clockface timetable is gone. Further to that you will inevitably delay Northern Commuters and the Enterprise even further.

As mentioned, Clongriffin has it particularly bad, as a result of most Balbriggan/Drogheda/Dundalks skipping it.

For the Howth Branch, while running a shuttle from HJ to Howth may sound good on paper, it would be a huge reduction in service, by way of direct train rather than frequency. Surprising to some the Howth Branch is very well used for the small area it serves (Bayside, Baldoyle, Sutton & Howth). The branch is extremely popular during the summer months and especially so at the weekends. Passengers don't like changing trains in my experience.

I am a 6 days a week DART user on the Northside and I find the service pretty good, and have been using it all my life. The clockface timetable now in place makes it very easy to know when your next train is, along with mobile apps etc.

Cool Mo D

bikeman1 wrote: »

The problem at Malahide currently is that there is only one crossover to the North of the station, which allows up trains (to Dublin) overtake a DART on the up Platform.

If you have a DART on the down platform (platform 2) and a train is to overtake it (heading North), it can't do it. The only way around is to run the DART into the quarry siding. This then adds about 8-10 minutes to the turnaround and hey presto, your clockface timetable is gone. Further to that you will inevitably delay Northern Commuters and the Enterprise even further.

As mentioned, Clongriffin has it particularly bad, as a result of most Balbriggan/Drogheda/Dundalks skipping it.

For the Howth Branch, while running a shuttle from HJ to Howth may sound good on paper, it would be a huge reduction in service, by way of direct train rather than frequency. Surprising to some the Howth Branch is very well used for the small area it serves (Bayside, Baldoyle, Sutton & Howth). The branch is extremely popular during the summer months and especially so at the weekends. Passengers don't like changing trains in my experience.

I am a 6 days a week DART user on the Northside and I find the service pretty good, and have been using it all my life. The clockface timetable now in place makes it very easy to know when your next train is, along with mobile apps etc.

If you terminate all DARTs on platform 1 at Malahide, all other north and southbound trains can use platform two. When there are several northbound commuter trains in an hour, there will be only one or two southbound commuter/intercity trains that hour, and vice versa. It would be perfectly possible if the DART and commuter timetables were designed together properly.

If you ran 6 DARTs an hour, alternating Malahide/Howth you would have a much improved service for all users.

TheBandicoot

Cool Mo D wrote: »

If you terminate all DARTs on platform 1 at Malahide, all other north and southbound trains can use platform two.

The point is that is not physically possible- there is no crossover from the northbound line(into platform 2) to the southbound line(into platform 1). So terminating DARTs have to use platform 2, and from there the only way to get them out of the way is to run backwards into the quarry siding, or forwards, across the crossover onto the southbound line, then run back into platform 1.

Cool Mo D

TheBandicoot wrote: »

The point is that is not physically possible- there is no crossover from the northbound line(into platform 2) to the southbound line(into platform 1). So terminating DARTs have to use platform 2, and from there the only way to get them out of the way is to run backwards into the quarry siding, or forwards, across the crossover onto the southbound line, then run back into platform 1.

Have you ever been to Malahide? Most DARTs do in fact terminate on Platform 1. They absolutely do not have to use platform 2. They generally only terminate on platform 2 before the Enterprise is due to pass through the station.

DARTs can, and do, terminate on either platform. You can clearly see the points that facilitate this south of the bridge at the station on Google Maps.

TheBandicoot

Ah, my apologies- not sure where bikeman1 was coming from then..

bikeman1

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Have you ever been to Malahide? Most DARTs do in fact terminate on Platform 1. They absolutely do not have to use platform 2. They generally only terminate on platform 2 before the Enterprise is due to pass through the station.

DARTs can, and do, terminate on either platform. You can clearly see the points that facilitate this south of the bridge at the station on Google Maps.

And the problem is just that. The crossovers go both ways two the south of the station but only up to down on the North side of the station. If you put in a crossover from the down line to the up line North of Malahide it would make things a lot more flexible, especially DARTs terminating on platform 2.

Current Issue:

Train 1: DART from Bray travelling to Malahide and terminating to turn back.

Train 2: Commuter from Pearse to Drogheda, travelling 10 minutes behind from Pearse, but non-stop Connolly - Howth Junction.

Train 3: Belfast - Dublin Enterprise, due through Malahide 5 minutes after DART arrives.

Current Solution:

Train 1: Arrives platform 2 Malahide, driver changes ends, waits for clockface departure time.

Train 2: Waits outside Malahide, until DART departs and clears platform 2.

Train 3: Runs straight through Malahide non-stop, platform 1.


Train 2 can cross over onto platform 1 and make it's station stop while Train 1 is waiting its departure time. However when the Drogheda bound train goes to depart Malahide heading North from Platform 1, it cannot cross back onto the down line, as NO crossover exists in that direction. And that is the problem.

Solution, put in another crossover to the North of the station.

shamrock2004

markpb wrote: »

I'm contemplating moving house soon and found a place I like beside Clongriffin dart station. I lived on the Dart line years ago and gave up on it because the frequencies were pretty poor and because of the big gaps between some trains. Now, almost ten years later, I'm looking at the Dart time timetable (between Clongriffin and Blackrock) and I'm shocked at how poor it is for an urban train system.

In the morning, the first train isn't until 6:37, then half hour gaps for a while. There are only 3 trains at 10 minute intervals, 2 at 15 minute intervals and then, at 8:30 it's a half hour between trains. The evenings are worse with 20, 25 and 30 minute intervals between 5:30 and 7:30.

This means there are only 2 trains between 8 and 9 and 3 between 5:30 and 6:30. If that's not a peak period, what is?

Maybe I've been spoiled by living on the Luas Green line for the last three years but this is piss poor.

Plus the trains are shorter now and tick prices are the highest they've ever been.

Cool Mo D

bikeman1 wrote: »

And the problem is just that. The crossovers go both ways two the south of the station but only up to down on the North side of the station. If you put in a crossover from the down line to the up line North of Malahide it would make things a lot more flexible, especially DARTs terminating on platform 2.

Current Issue:

Train 1: DART from Bray travelling to Malahide and terminating to turn back.

Train 2: Commuter from Pearse to Drogheda, travelling 10 minutes behind from Pearse, but non-stop Connolly - Howth Junction.

Train 3: Belfast - Dublin Enterprise, due through Malahide 5 minutes after DART arrives.

Current Solution:

Train 1: Arrives platform 2 Malahide, driver changes ends, waits for clockface departure time.

Train 2: Waits outside Malahide, until DART departs and clears platform 2.

Train 3: Runs straight through Malahide non-stop, platform 1.


Train 2 can cross over onto platform 1 and make it's station stop while Train 1 is waiting its departure time. However when the Drogheda bound train goes to depart Malahide heading North from Platform 1, it cannot cross back onto the down line, as NO crossover exists in that direction. And that is the problem.

Solution, put in another crossover to the North of the station.

Ok, but what could happen there is train 1 takes platform 1, train 3 switches over to platform 2 and back before train 2 arrives, which then calls at platform 2.

I know that will significantly slow the Enterprise while passing through Malahide, but since the Enterprise only calls once every 2 hours in each direction, a timetable could surely be devised that has the Enterprise come through when a commuter train is nowhere near.

bikeman1

Indeed it could do that, but it is far from ideal to slow the already slow Enterprise. Remember, for a train to crossover in that scenario, there is an approach control, meaning the Enterprise would have to come to a near stop before the signal would let him around the DART on platform 1.

Always with train planning you have to remember that it is not just what you see that is only the problem. You have:

Platform availability

Crew Rest Breaks

Servicing of trains

Conflicts with other trains potentially at Connolly / Malahide / Drogheda (single line over Boyne Viaduct) / Portadown / Lisburn / GVS / Belfast Central

And that's only with one train. The DART has to fit around other services across the Loop Line (Connolly - Pearse), Maynooth Services, Rosslare line services etc etc.

A knock on of 2/3 minutes can mess up a whole timetable. The current timetable has ironed out 90% of the problems that were there in the past, and works well given the infrastructure in place.

Also Clongriffin has a very good and well used cross city route 15 running every 10-20 minutes throughout the day right into the centre of town taking a lot of potential rail passengers.

LXFlyer

As bikeman1 alludes to, the problem is frankly Malahide and its inflexible layout, that causes serious issues when there are several trains passing through.

There were plans to install turnback sidings north of the station, stretching out across the estuary, but local residents in the apartments objected (sound familiar?).

Ultimately the only way Clongriffen will get a proper service is if:
1) Proper turnback facilities are installed at Malahide or elsewhere north of same.
2) Howth Branch becomes an off-peak shuttle - frequency could improve on the branch (not disimprove as suggested above) - a 15 minute frequency could be provided with two sets, this maintaining a full 15 minute frequency north of Howth Junction on both lines. Peak direct trains could be retained with commuter trains filling those gaps on the Northern line.

A recast of other services apart from DART is overdue into a clockface pattern - to fit around the DART timetable. DART forms the basis of the timetable on the Connolly side of the Irish Rail network. Other services fit around it, not the other way around.

LXFlyer

Also were DART to extended to the Airport that would dramatically improve frequency at Clongriffen where it would also interchange with the Enterprise.

Julius Seizure

lxflyer wrote: »

Also were DART to extended to the Airport that would dramatically improve frequency at Clongriffen where it would also interchange with the Enterprise.

As unlikely as the Airport extension is, stopping the Enterprise before Connolly would be madness.

LXFlyer

Julius Seizure wrote: »

As unlikely as the Airport extension is, stopping the Enterprise before Connolly would be madness.

Why?

It would offer a rail alternative for travellers from Northern Ireland to/from Dublin Airport.

Or perhaps you don't consider that an important market that rail shouldn't tap into if the connection were there?

sfcdub

Julius Seizure wrote: »

As unlikely as the Airport extension is, stopping the Enterprise before Connolly would be madness.

Wouldn't be a bad idea. Most Enterprises drastically slow down around Howth Junction to about 20/30 km/h so it wouldn't take too much time.

Also, an airport link would be a good seller if/when they decide to go hourly with the Enterprise.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

There were plans to install turnback sidings north of the station, stretching out across the estuary, but local residents in the apartments objected (sound familiar?).

someone should have told them to get over it and the facilities built.

lxflyer wrote: »

DART forms the basis of the timetable on the Connolly side of the Irish Rail network. Other services fit around it, not the other way around.

maybe its time that was looked at? that non stoping services get priority as they can clear the line quicker? if done right i doubt there would be much if any difference to dart services. i know it isn't going to happen but its an idea.

Julius Seizure

lxflyer wrote: »

Why?

It would offer a rail alternative for travellers from Northern Ireland to/from Dublin Airport.

Or perhaps you don't consider that an important market that rail shouldn't tap into if the connection were there?

It's a limited stop intercity that's slow enough as it is. Earlier on it was said that IÉ would never slow down the Enterprise so that it can cross tracks at Malahide to overtake other trains so why would they stop it? Those passengers around Clongriffin who want to use the intercity could just as easily go to Connolly rather than slow down the many more intercity passengers.

LXFlyer

Julius Seizure wrote: »

It's a limited stop intercity that's slow enough as it is. Earlier on it was said that IÉ would never slow down the Enterprise so that it can cross tracks at Malahide to overtake other trains so why would they stop it? Those passengers around Clongriffin who want to use the intercity could just as easily go to Connolly rather than slow down the many more intercity passengers.

I'm not talking about passengers from Clongriffen to Dublin, I'm talking about people using a DART spur from Dublin Airport to Clongriffen to travel to/from NI.

That's a big difference. The numbers using the airport from NI have been steadily rising and in my view were that spur built, then IE/NIR should do everything possible to get a foothold into that business.

It would be pickup only northbound and set down only southbound, enforced by barrier checks at Connolly.