Water Charges question regarding number of adults living in the house

muddle84

So I am led to believe that the first six months or so of water charges will be based solely on the number of people living in the house.
My question is how do they know who is living in the house? Is it based on the address acoording to revenue?

_Kaiser_

muddle84 wrote: »

So I am led to believe that the first six months or so of water charges will be based solely on the number of people living in the house.
My question is how do they know who is living in the house? Is it based on the address acoording to revenue?

They'll be sending out forms that you'll have to fill in and return to them - including the PPS numbers of the occupants

Supposedly this is to ensure that those who are entitled to "free" allowances will get them but I reckon that it's so that they can deduct from your wages/dole if you don't cough up.

2 reasons for this:

- The whole Irish Water scam was moved from Environment to Finance in the recent reshuffle

- The government are looking to setup a state debt collection agency

Yet another cash grab from Enda and his pals!

Victor

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Supposedly this is to ensure that those who are entitled to "free" allowances will get them but I reckon that it's so that they can deduct from your wages/dole if you don't cough up.

2 reasons for this:

- The whole Irish Water scam was moved from Environment to Finance in the recent reshuffle

- The government are looking to setup a state debt collection agency

Yet another cash grab from Enda and his pals!

This is the Accommodation & Property forum, let's keep any comments on-topic. There is a Politics forum if you want to make such comments.

Moderator

No Pants

muddle84 wrote: »

My question is how do they know who is living in the house? Is it based on the address acoording to revenue?

You'll tell them in order to get whatever "free" allowances are available.

The_Conductor

Number of adults will be referenced to multiple sources- including the electoral register.

muddle84

The_Conductor wrote: »

Number of adults will be referenced to multiple sources- including the electoral register.

This exactly what i waa afraid of. So how do i change my name on the electoral register? And what other sources are you referring to?

No Pants

muddle84 wrote: »

This exactly what i waa afraid of. So how do i change my name on the electoral register? And what other sources are you referring to?

Is you name currently incorrect on the electoral register?

muddle84

No Pants wrote: »

Is you name currently incorrect on the electoral register?

Sorry i actually meant how do i change my address on the electoral register. My current address is home. I never bothered to change it because i was moving around so much.

The_Conductor

muddle84 wrote: »

Sorry i actually meant how do i change my address on the electoral register. My current address is home. I never bothered to change it because i was moving around so much.

You have to apply to the council in whose electoral area you reside- notifying them of your previous address to have your details recorded for your current address, and removed for the previous address. Most councils have a specific form for this (many even provide pre-paid return slips).

hdowney

Not a hope they'll be getting a PPS number from anyone in this house

The_Conductor

hdowney wrote: »

Not a hope they'll be getting a PPS number from anyone in this house

Just as long as you accept this means no free allowance for the occupants......

hdowney

The_Conductor wrote: »

Just as long as you accept this means no free allowance for the occupants......

Correct me if I am wrong (and I probably am) but the 'free' allowance is only for kids right? Not adults?

mirrorwall14

But the electoral register is notoriously wrong? I'm registered in three different places (and I have tried to inform them), I actually get a voting card at all three!

timetogo

hdowney wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong (and I probably am) but the 'free' allowance is only for kids right? Not adults?

30,000 litres per household.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

Mrs OBumble

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

But the electoral register is notoriously wrong? I'm registered in three different places (and I have tried to inform them), I actually get a voting card at all three!

Three times the free allowance for you, so!

MouseTail

timetogo wrote: »

30,000 litres per household.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

And hdowney says no one in the house will give a PPSN, so I presume the house will then be treated like a holiday home, and get billed for the 30,000. Nose and face come to mind.

hdowney

Gee how nice of you. Thanks for that.

I really feel we haven't been told anything at all and are just expected to jump and do what we are told (like always). And citizen's advice website isn't 'telling' us. Literature should be delivered to every household

ABajaninCork

Isn't the water on a rate until 2017 when all the meters are expected to be fitted by then?

MouseTail

hdowney wrote: »

Gee how nice of you. Thanks for that.

I really feel we haven't been told anything at all and are just expected to jump and do what we are told (like always). And citizen's advice website isn't 'telling' us. Literature should be delivered to every household

of course literature will be provided, same as with any utility provider, but in the interim you can hardly claim an information deficit. In any case, it is foolish not to furnish a PPSN to avail of the 30,000 free littes.

Caliden

Irish water have said they want to have a daily allowance (~82 litres/day) and it can't be carried over from day to day


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/use-it-or-lose-it-plans-for-water-allowances-spark-hygiene-fears-30425778.html

timetogo

Caliden wrote: »

Irish water have said they want to have a daily allowance (~82 litres/day) and it can't be carried over from day to day


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/use-it-or-lose-it-plans-for-water-allowances-spark-hygiene-fears-30425778.html

When that article came out I think people were saying the meters don't have that capability. Is that the case? I don't know that much about the meters. Sounds sensible enough.

The metres are read when a van drives past. The van would have to drive past every day for that to work.

Telecaster58

Listening to the spokeswoman for Irish Water, the charges are going to be a figure based on the number of people at an address, until the water meters kick in after 6 months or so. Therefore the question raised in the first instance is still valid.
I have two adult children who are currently not at home, but will be by September. Regardless of what the Electoral Register says I have no intention of disclosing the fact that there are 4 adults in the house as that would add €204 to the water charges.

Mrs OBumble

Telecaster58 wrote: »

Regardless of what the Electoral Register says I have no intention of disclosing the fact that there are 4 adults in the house as that would add €204 to the water charges.

Add or remove? I thought households would get a free allowance based on how many people live there, ie more people = more unbilled water?

Or is it the opposite way around for the first six months?

Either way - if a government official asks you how many people live in a property, for the purpose of calculating a legal tax or charge, then your choices are to

1) Refuse to tell them - and likely get billed utility-provider the equivalent of emergency tax, ie a lot more than you'd be liable for.
2) Lie - and commit fraud - which will probably have consequences at some stage.
3) Tell the truth.

Your call - I know which one I'd be picking.



Two observations here: lots of references to things heard in the ether. Are there no publications / press-releases yet, or have Irish Water not quite managed to get their media-management stuff sorted.

And it would be really hilarious (and A Good Thing, IMHO) if an unintended consequence of the water charging was an improvement in the quality of electoral-roll data.

No Pants

hdowney wrote: »

Literature should be delivered to every household

What exactly would you like to see in this literature that isn't already covered elsewhere? I'm assuming that you're happy for the cost of this literature to be added to the eventual bill.

Telecaster58

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Add or remove? I thought households would get a free allowance based on how many people live there, ie more people = more unbilled water?

Or is it the opposite way around for the first six months?

Either way - if a government official asks you how many people live in a property, for the purpose of calculating a legal tax or charge, then your choices are to

1) Refuse to tell them - and likely get billed utility-provider the equivalent of emergency tax, ie a lot more than you'd be liable for.
2) Lie - and commit fraud - which will probably have consequences at some stage.
3) Tell the truth.

Your call - I know which one I'd be picking.



Two observations here: lots of references to things heard in the ether. Are there no publications / press-releases yet, or have Irish Water not quite managed to get their media-management stuff sorted.

And it would be really hilarious (and A Good Thing, IMHO) if an unintended consequence of the water charging was an improvement in the quality of electoral-roll data.

From my understanding every household will get an estimated bill until the metering system is up and running. Most people have concentrated on the aspect of free water usage for children and ignored the situation for adults. For the administration of Irish Water to issue bills they must know how many adults are in the house. If they carried out that survey now my answer is 2. Next month it will be three, and shortly after, 4. Within 3 months it may be back to 2. It is not a case of lying but I do not see why honesty should be penalised. They've installed a meter but due to their own inefficiency it will not operate for at least 6 months.

muddle84

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Add or remove? I thought households would get a free allowance based on how many people live there, ie more people = more unbilled water?

Or is it the opposite way around for the first six months?

Two observations here: lots of references to things heard in the ether. Are there no publications / press-releases yet, or have Irish Water not quite managed to get their media-management stuff sorted.

The free allowance is for the children only( people under 18). From what I have read,for the first six months every house will be billed based on how many adults ( people over the age of 18 regardless of there employment status) live in that house. How they determine how many people live in the house is what I am trying to figure out. I first heard of this approach from somebody to do with Irish water that was on Newstalk. I also read it on a newspaper website which I think was the independant.

The_Conductor

muddle84 wrote: »

The free allowance is for the children only( people under 18). From what I have read,for the first six months every house will be billed based on how many adults ( people over the age of 18 regardless of there employment status) live in that house. How they determine how many people live in the house is what I am trying to figure out. I first heard of this approach from somebody to do with Irish water that was on Newstalk. I also read it on a newspaper website which I think was the independant.

The proposal is that there be a free allowance of 30,000 liters per person per annum- with an additional allowance of a further 23,000 liters per child (under the age of 18) per annum. (they had originally proposed an additional 38,000 liters per child- but this was revised downwards by Irish Water- and accepted at a lower level of 23,000 by the CER- on the basis of submissions from Irish Water- indicating Irish children would not need the higher amount of water).

Its still with the CER though- and if you have any observations on the proposals- get your skates on, you have only another forthnight to send in your comments/obs.

Also- this has all been moved from the Department of the Environment to Finance- and its thought that ultimately it will come under the remit of the soon to be consituted State Collections Agency.

Michael D Not Higgins

The_Conductor wrote: »

The proposal is that there be a free allowance of 30,000 liters per person per annum- with an additional allowance of a further 23,000 liters per child (under the age of 18) per annum. (they had originally proposed an additional 38,000 liters per child- but this was revised downwards by Irish Water- and accepted at a lower level of 23,000 by the CER- on the basis of submissions from Irish Water- indicating Irish children would not need the higher amount of water).

Its still with the CER though- and if you have any observations on the proposals- get your skates on, you have only another forthnight to send in your comments/obs.

Also- this has all been moved from the Department of the Environment to Finance- and its thought that ultimately it will come under the remit of the soon to be consituted State Collections Agency.

I thought it was 30,000 per household not per person.

The_Conductor

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I thought it was 30,000 per household not per person.

Yes, you're right- it is

SMJSF

what about buildings with apartments? is that under "group water"? will each person have to pay a set amount, or will be charged separately?

sorry I've read the citizens advice, and has left me very confused!!

The_Conductor

SMJSF wrote: »

what about buildings with apartments? is that under "group water"? will each person have to pay a set amount, or will be charged separately?

sorry I've read the citizens advice, and has left me very confused!!

Any properties that they can't install a meter in- are to be charged according to the number of inhabitants, property type, property size etc. The occupants would be billed separately by Irish Water- not the Management Company (aka its another utility bill for residents- its not the duty of the landlord to pay the bill).

ted1

I gather that the PRTB will pass on the Pps numbers for those renting and that only those registered will get allowances.

murphaph

The_Conductor wrote: »

Any properties that they can't install a meter in- are to be charged according to the number of inhabitants, property type, property size etc. The occupants would be billed separately by Irish Water- not the Management Company (aka its another utility bill for residents- its not the duty of the landlord to pay the bill).

They could always take the German approach. One meter per building and leave it up to the management company to pay the bill, dividing it as they see fit (almost always according to unit size).

Our building was like this until recently when individual meters were installed. The city still bills the management company with a single bill but the apportionment is now made according to the individual meter ratios.

murphaph

ted1 wrote: »

I gather that the PRTB will pass on the Pps numbers for those renting and that only those registered will get allowances.

That's not going to stand up to any scrutiny. You can't deny a tenant his water allowance because his landlord hasn't registered the tenancy so I'll call bullsh1t on this one. Where did you hear this?

Victor

SMJSF wrote: »

what about buildings with apartments? is that under "group water"? will each person have to pay a set amount, or will be charged separately?

Many apartments built in recent years already have water meters installed.

ted1

murphaph wrote: »

That's not going to stand up to any scrutiny. You can't deny a tenant his water allowance because his landlord hasn't registered the tenancy so I'll call bullsh1t on this one. Where did you hear this?

it would be common sense. it'll also mean the the tenanats ensure their registered and will lodge a complaint if they don't

murphaph

Where did you hear this?

Greenmachine

murphaph wrote: »

Where did you hear this?

Can Irish Water Bill for the same water twice. Flat has the same water supply as the shop downstairs. If the shop owner already pays for my water usage can Irish water bill me for the same water again.

SMJSF

Victor wrote:

Many apartments built in recent years already have water meters installed.

unfortunately this building has been here for more than 50 years (from historic images) and it was turned into apartments about 15- 20 years ago.

Victor

Greenmachine wrote: »

Can Irish Water Bill for the same water twice. Flat has the same water supply as the shop downstairs. If the shop owner already pays for my water usage can Irish water bill me for the same water again.

No. However, you might end up getting a separate supply / meter.

Victor

marie rosanna wrote: »

As far as I know, the water board is a private company. They cannot request a persons pps number nor are you obliged to give your number to them. as for the PTSB passing on a persons number,,, this should be legally wrong... if your permission is not asked for and given for them to do so,,

This was dealt with under the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014. A commencement order is not needed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0016/sec0002.html#sec2

Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014 wrote:

Definitions
2. In this Part—
“Principal Act” means the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0016/sec0020.html#sec20

Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014 wrote:

Specified bodies

20. Schedule 5 to the Principal Act is amended in paragraph 1(4) by inserting “Irish Water,” after “Health and Social Care Professionals Council,” (inserted by section 20 of the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0043/sec0002.html#sec2

Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009 wrote:

Definitions.

2.—In this Act—
“Act of 2007” means the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0043/sec0020.html#sec20

Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009. wrote:

Schedule 5 — amendment.

20.—Schedule 5 (as amended by section 32 of the Act of 2007) to the Principal Act is amended in paragraph 1.(4)—
(a) by inserting “Health and Social Care Professionals Council,” after “Enterprise Ireland,”, and
(b) by inserting “the Road Safety Authority,” after “the Private Security Authority,”.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0008/sec0032.html#sec32

Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007 wrote:

32.— The Principal Act is amended—

...

(d) in Schedule 5, in paragraph 1.(4), by deleting “An Post”.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/sec0262.html#sec262

Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 wrote:

Personal public service number.

262.—(1) Subject to this section, in this section and sections 263 to 270—


“personal public service number” means a number allocated and issued in accordance with subsection (2);

...

“specified body” shall be read in accordance with Schedule 5;

...

(2) The Minister may allocate and issue a personal public service number to each person who is the subject of any transaction with a specified body.

...

(4) A person shall give to a specified body his or her personal public service number and the personal public service numbers of his or her spouse and children, where relevant, as required by the body for the purposes of the person’s transaction.

...

(6) (a) Where a specified body has a transaction with a person, the Minister may share the person’s public service identity with the specified body to the extent necessary for authentication by the specified body of the person’s public service identity.

(b) A specified body may use a person’s public service identity in performing its public functions insofar as those functions relate to the person concerned.

...

(9) A person, other than—
(a) the person to whom the personal public service number concerned refers,
(b) a specified body,
(c) a person who has a transaction with a specified body where the personal public service number is relevant to the transaction between the person and the specified body, or
(d) a person who is required to comply with section 260 or 261 or regulations made under those sections,

who uses a personal public service number or seeks to have a personal public service number disclosed to him or her is guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/sched5.html#sched5

Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 wrote:

SCHEDULE 5
SPECIFIED BODIES

Section 262 .

1. Each of the following shall be a specified body for the purposes of this Schedule and sections 262 to 270 :

Greenmachine

Victor wrote: »

No. However, you might end up getting a separate supply / meter.

There are a number of flats above this particular shop. What would be involved in creating separate supplies for each flat. The cost for this would surely fall onto the landlord. Guessing something like that would run into the 1000's.