Is the EU wrong to impose sanctions on Russia?

realitykeeper

After the Malaysian airliner was shot down over Ukraine, Putin said it would not have happened if there was no war in the Ukraine. This is undoubtedly true. It is also true from a Russian perspective that the EU and the US are fueling Ukraine`s aggression against the separatists. The Ukraine would be far less belligerent if the EU and the US were not supporting them, at least in word if not financially.

The EU told the Ukraine that if they wanted closer ties with Europe they would have to forfeit closer ties with Russia. This was an unnecessary precondition which seems to have been partly responsible for the situation which has developed in Ukraine as well as a deterioration in relations between Russia and the EU.

It is generally accepted the people of Eastern Ukraine want to be free of the rest of Ukraine. Their wishes should be respected but by insisting the territory is Ukrainian, the EU and the US is preventing Russia from helping to resolve the situation properly. The referendum in eastern Ukraine was hardly ideal and the leaders of that territory do come across as a bunch of thugs. However, without international support for Russian involvement, the thugs will stay in power and Russia will probably help them covertly as they are seen as the lesser of two evils from a Russian perspective.

This Russian help maybe reprehensible but it is a consequence of EU failure to share the Ukraine as a trading partner with Russia, along with EU and US failure to respect the wishes of the people who actually live in Eastern Ukraine, plus the advancement of NATO etc.

The people of eastern Ukraine are descended from Russians who were sent there during the Soviet era. Ukraine and the west do not believe this territory should go to Russia because that would be like rewarding aggression and conquest. All this may be true and certainly one option may be to continue upping the anti, waging world war three, letting the dust settle, seeing where the chips lie (if we are alive to see them) and then reflecting upon the lessons of war like others who survived wars in the past.

Alternatively, what if the west desisted from supporting Ukraine`s claim to the eastern part of it`s country, and supported an independent eastern region of Ukraine or a possible merger of that territory with Russia. Some have claimed it would be like the allies letting Nazi Germany have Czechoslovakia but that is hardly an accurate analogy. Hitler was not a well man. He was an anomaly whose rise to power was a reaction by the German people to the morally bankrupt treaty of Versailles which ruined and humiliated Germany.

If eastern Ukraine were to go to the Russian sphere of influence, it is possible that the territory would eventually revert to Ukraine. For example, if the Russians in the territory discriminate and marginalize the Ukrainian minority, then the minority population will thrive like all poverty stricken peoples and the demographics will eventually make them the majority. If they are not discriminated against then what difference does it really make if they are part of Russia or Ukraine. It could be like northern Ireland. Everyone agrees to pretend it is part of the UK but in reality of course it could no more be part of the UK than the moons of Saturn.

Putin is more like Churchill than Hitler. He is a stubborn and proud man who will not be bullied. He does want Russia to regain the power and status of the old Soviet Union just as Churchill strove to retain the British Empire and prevent its collapse. CIA operatives view Putin with suspicion. They describe him as "KGB". This may be true but at the end of the day, KGB agents are people.

Fear and suspicion of the other is what leads to conflict. Trust is priceless. In a Mexican standoff, it is better to lay down the gun. Even if the other guy kills you, that is the best strategy - you may need to think about that to understand why. Pope John Paul II encouraged love of the other as a key philosophy of life. In this age of nuclear proliferation, environmental degradation etc it may be that the literal teachings of Christ are what is needed in modern governments. The core philosophy being: love one another and love your enemy as yourself. If this were deployed as a universal policy then the war in Gaza would not have happened.

Using this philosophy, the conflict in Gaza was between good and evil and not between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The good being all those opposed to all the violence and the evil were those who sided with either the Israelis or the Palestinians. In other words, both the Israeli and Palestinian aggressors were both on the same side, that of evil while the good were opposed to the violence on both sides of the conflict.

The US did not support Russian action in Chechnya and Russia responded by opposing US aggression against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iran etc, etc, etc. Perhaps the US and Russia could have helped each other by mediating in these conflicts instead of choosing a side a standing opposed.

The US is now attempting to bully EU countries and companies to support their sanctions against Russia by means of threats and fines for companies which it sees as infringing the trade sanctions. This is tyrannical and in any case sanctions against Russia are not going to improve relations between Russia and the west.

Not only will sanctions not help the situation in Ukraine but they will give rise to counter sanctions against the EU. When the sanctions fail will the EU (spurred by the US) increase sanctions and who will those sanctions ultimately effect? The latest round of sanctions for example will hit Russia`s oil and gas industry and that will have direct consequences for ordinary Russian people. The Russian people will blame those who imposed the sanctions on their country. They will not blame Putin. This should be obvious from the lessons of history.

The escalation of tensions between east and west through sanctions and counter sanctions is at odds with the simple message of Christ. Love one another. The alternative is not a good idea.

petronius

Sanctions is wrong
Why no Sanctions against China over Tibet, or Hong Kong
Why is there no Sanctions against Israel over Palestine/Gaza
Why is there no EU Sanctions against Sri Lanka over the Tamils
Why is there no EU Sanctions against Morocco over Western Sahara
...
Europe has stoked up division in Ukraine -
Ukraine to quote Henry Kissinger should be a bridge to Russia and not a barrier
this time last year the median demonstration which over threw the democratically elected leader like him or hate him, was a putsch a western backed coup against a democratic government - the promise of eu funding and membership and western funding and anti-russian-ism is rife and now the majority but they should have used the ballot box and not violence backed by the west to do so.
How can a russian speaking ukrainian feel if they see that who they elect doesnt mater and the west will remove them if they side with russia
How can Ukraine not be a hostile place for russian speakers if they dont acknowledge it in government business, how can they appeal to the south and east of Ukraine, whom they disallow from holding both russian and ukrainian passports
Now the west/EU has created the division in Ukraine, and the conditions which led to the resulting violence backed by russian

hfallada

Regardless of Russia stance on Ukraine or Europe. We should have sanctions on it for Human rights violations. The Russian Government has a mass propaganda campaign against the LGBT community which I believe cant be seen elsewhere in the world. Although countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia arent the most tolerant of gay people. In fact they have the death penalty against them if they are caught in a homosexual act. But the government also has the death penalty for a variety of other things like drugs and adultery.

However Russia imprisons gay people for just being gay. That wouldnt even happen in the middle east and even in countries like Lebanon, gay bars are tolerated. You dont hear of gay people being treated the way they are being treated in Russia in places like Beirut. Hitler started by using minorities are a scrap goat and won the trust of the people. Almost the same practice is happening in Russia now. Will the Muslim minority in Russia be the next target of Putin?

Count Dooku

hfallada wrote: »

However Russia imprisons gay people for just being gay.

Any proof?

Trimax77

It's not illegal to be gay in Russia and believe me Russia is a lot more tolerant than most middle east and African countries towards lbgt.

Yes it does have a law which prevents the promotion of homosexuality to minors. This is the controversial anti gay propaganda law. I do not condone this law but I also don't condone the demonisation of an entire country by people who have never actually been there.

It's by no means a liberal country but far from the nazi dictatorship it's made out to be. People are lgbt in Russia and they have gay a culture with bars, nightclubs, publications etc. Thus is more than you would ever see in Saudi Arabia for example.

If we are going to start sanctioning countries because of their laws affecting lgbt people, than lets start with the worst offenders. Russia is way down the list .

davwain

realitykeeper wrote: »

After the Malaysian airliner was shot down over Ukraine, Putin said it would not have happened if there was no war in the Ukraine. This is undoubtedly true. It is also true from a Russian perspective that the EU and the US are fueling Ukraine`s aggression against the separatists. The Ukraine would be far less belligerent if the EU and the US were not supporting them, at least in word if not financially.

The EU told the Ukraine that if they wanted closer ties with Europe they would have to forfeit closer ties with Russia. This was an unnecessary precondition which seems to have been partly responsible for the situation which has developed in Ukraine as well as a deterioration in relations between Russia and the EU.

It is generally accepted the people of Eastern Ukraine want to be free of the rest of Ukraine. Their wishes should be respected but by insisting the territory is Ukrainian, the EU and the US is preventing Russia from helping to resolve the situation properly. The referendum in eastern Ukraine was hardly ideal and the leaders of that territory do come across as a bunch of thugs. However, without international support for Russian involvement, the thugs will stay in power and Russia will probably help them covertly as they are seen as the lesser of two evils from a Russian perspective.

This Russian help maybe reprehensible but it is a consequence of EU failure to share the Ukraine as a trading partner with Russia, along with EU and US failure to respect the wishes of the people who actually live in Eastern Ukraine, plus the advancement of NATO etc.

The people of eastern Ukraine are descended from Russians who were sent there during the Soviet era. Ukraine and the west do not believe this territory should go to Russia because that would be like rewarding aggression and conquest. All this may be true and certainly one option may be to continue upping the anti, waging world war three, letting the dust settle, seeing where the chips lie (if we are alive to see them) and then reflecting upon the lessons of war like others who survived wars in the past.

Alternatively, what if the west desisted from supporting Ukraine`s claim to the eastern part of it`s country, and supported an independent eastern region of Ukraine or a possible merger of that territory with Russia. Some have claimed it would be like the allies letting Nazi Germany have Czechoslovakia but that is hardly an accurate analogy. Hitler was not a well man. He was an anomaly whose rise to power was a reaction by the German people to the morally bankrupt treaty of Versailles which ruined and humiliated Germany.

If eastern Ukraine were to go to the Russian sphere of influence, it is possible that the territory would eventually revert to Ukraine. For example, if the Russians in the territory discriminate and marginalize the Ukrainian minority, then the minority population will thrive like all poverty stricken peoples and the demographics will eventually make them the majority. If they are not discriminated against then what difference does it really make if they are part of Russia or Ukraine. It could be like northern Ireland. Everyone agrees to pretend it is part of the UK but in reality of course it could no more be part of the UK than the moons of Saturn.

Putin is more like Churchill than Hitler. He is a stubborn and proud man who will not be bullied. He does want Russia to regain the power and status of the old Soviet Union just as Churchill strove to retain the British Empire and prevent its collapse. CIA operatives view Putin with suspicion. They describe him as "KGB". This may be true but at the end of the day, KGB agents are people.

Fear and suspicion of the other is what leads to conflict. Trust is priceless. In a Mexican standoff, it is better to lay down the gun. Even if the other guy kills you, that is the best strategy - you may need to think about that to understand why. Pope John Paul II encouraged love of the other as a key philosophy of life. In this age of nuclear proliferation, environmental degradation etc it may be that the literal teachings of Christ are what is needed in modern governments. The core philosophy being: love one another and love your enemy as yourself. If this were deployed as a universal policy then the war in Gaza would not have happened.

Using this philosophy, the conflict in Gaza was between good and evil and not between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The good being all those opposed to all the violence and the evil were those who sided with either the Israelis or the Palestinians. In other words, both the Israeli and Palestinian aggressors were both on the same side, that of evil while the good were opposed to the violence on both sides of the conflict.

The US did not support Russian action in Chechnya and Russia responded by opposing US aggression against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iran etc, etc, etc. Perhaps the US and Russia could have helped each other by mediating in these conflicts instead of choosing a side a standing opposed.

The US is now attempting to bully EU countries and companies to support their sanctions against Russia by means of threats and fines for companies which it sees as infringing the trade sanctions. This is tyrannical and in any case sanctions against Russia are not going to improve relations between Russia and the west.

Not only will sanctions not help the situation in Ukraine but they will give rise to counter sanctions against the EU. When the sanctions fail will the EU (spurred by the US) increase sanctions and who will those sanctions ultimately effect? The latest round of sanctions for example will hit Russia`s oil and gas industry and that will have direct consequences for ordinary Russian people. The Russian people will blame those who imposed the sanctions on their country. They will not blame Putin. This should be obvious from the lessons of history.

The escalation of tensions between east and west through sanctions and counter sanctions is at odds with the simple message of Christ. Love one another. The alternative is not a good idea.

It may be tempting to say that the EU should impose sanctions on many more countries than it is at present. Yet I believe that the EU is justified with imposing sanctions on Russia because the invasion, of a foreign country, is a violation of sovereignty. It is unacceptable that Russia's government, via its proxy armies in Ukraine, would stage an invasion. After all, if Russia wasn't stopped, we could be talking about Russia's invasion of the Baltic states or, even worse, other ex-Soviet Bloc countries outside the ex-USSR.