schools v clubs

rugbymad08

ive never played schools rugby and have always wondered about the difference in standard between the schools and clubs are the schools training more or is the standard of rugby coaching better etc

The Lost Sheep

In the bigger rugby schools players will train 3 times a week on the pitch and on the main teams will also have a few gym sessions a week. They will also have a game a week from start of September to March/April.

In clubs players will train once or twice a week and not have organised gym sessions(in the main that's changing now in quite a number of clubs). They will also not have on average as many games as in schools especially at the older age groups.

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

In the bigger rugby schools players will train 3 times a week on the pitch and on the main teams will also have a few gym sessions a week. They will also have a game a week from start of September to March/April.

In clubs players will train once or twice a week and not have organised gym sessions(in the main that's changing now in quite a number of clubs). They will also not have on average as many games as in schools especially at the older age groups.

Yep... Would agree there..

The schools have the benefit of more time with the players. In schools where Rugby is the number one sport PE classes are tip rugby and they train multiple times a week...Lunch-break sessions etc. etc.

I coach youth club rugby and we train twice a week, a few of our kids have gone to Rugby schools and are having 3 or 4 sessions a week (in the case of one kid that's in a Boarding school, he's training/playing pretty much every day)....

Obviously there's lots of variability group to group , but I don't think for example that there's much difference in the quality/type of the training the kids in my club get vs. the local rugby schools , but there is more quantity which for younger kids is a huge advantage as repetition is a key element in learning and developing the skills..

rugbymad08

is this just leaving cert year or do 1st years train that much as well

The Lost Sheep

rugbymad08 wrote: »

is this just leaving cert year or do 1st years train that much as well

First years will do 2-3 pitch sessions and a match a week. Once you move up age groups from under 13/14s(first years) to u15 to u16(JC) to u19(SC) teams will generally train more

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

First years will do 2-3 pitch sessions and a match a week. Once you move up age groups from under 13/14s(first years) to u15 to u16(JC) to u19(SC) teams will generally train more

Absolutely... A cup year team (JCT or SCT) will be training a lot.. ramping up towards the cup matches - Pitch training , Gym work , games etc. etc.

Tim Robbins

Schools get better coaches as well. Usually paid a few yo yos.

The other thing about the schools' players is they tend to just play Rugby. Whereas youth players tend to be playing GAA or something else - which means they you could find a really good youths team but one day they might be missing 5 of their best players because their is a GAA match on. That never happens with the schools.

You have a much better head start if you are schools and even more if you are in the big 6. Any youths player now needs to be practically world class to get an academy contract because, they are not going to be as well trained as the schools player in the same position.

The likes of Sean O'Brien would have had to be amazing to break through. You can be your bottom dollar the big schools would have all had decent back rowers at the time who were training 3 times as much and getting way better coaching.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Schools get better coaches as well. Usually paid a few yo yos.

The other thing about the schools' players is they tend to just play Rugby. Whereas youth players tend to be playing GAA or something else - which means they you could find a really good youths team but one day they might be missing 5 of their best players because their is a GAA match on. That never happens with the schools.

You have a much better head start if you are schools and even more if you are in the big 6. Any youths player now needs to be practically world class to get an academy contract because, they are not going to be as well trained as the schools player in the same position.

The likes of Sean O'Brien would have had to be amazing to break through. You can be your bottom dollar the big schools would have all had decent back rowers at the time who were training 3 times as much and getting way better coaching.

In general schools get better coaches but the standards are improving much more in youths where full development plans are in place with clubs recognising importance of top coaching standards at youths grades. Clubs in county towns: Navan, Boyne, Nenagh, Kanturk, Sligo etc all going senior has helped that.
You are seeing more and more at older age groups in youths players sticking to just one sport.
I 100% completely disagree that any youths player "now needs to be practically world class to get an academy contract" or that "they are not going to be as well trained as schools player in the same position". Just look at the underage teams of recent years. Sean O Brien is 27 and was going through the underage systems 7-11 years ago which is a lifetime in terms of how coaching etc has changed in the mean time.

locum-motion

Admittedly, this was 25+ years ago, but I was a boarder in one of the biggish Dublin rugby schools.

As far as Inter Cert, rugby was compulsory unless you had a medical reason not to play. After IC, you were allowed give up, but only if you took up an alternative.

There was training every day, and matches almost every Wed and Sat afternoon. (We had classes on both Wed and Sat morning)

Twice a week, the school put out 12 teams:

U13 A, B & C
U14 A, B & C
U15 A (JCT), B & C
U16 A & B
U18 A (SCT), B, C & D

Throughout my entire rugby career, I was, shall we say, a 'grass roots' player. I never played for any of the above 'A' teams. I played U16 B, and then U18 C for two years (the second one as Captain), and that was the modest height of my Schools' Rugby career.

On the other hand, I used to do pre-season training with my home town club's Youth section, and train/play with them in friendlies during Christmas/Easter holidays at U16 & U18 level (strictly against the rules, of course, but sure they were only friendlies)

When I was at U18 level, my club's team got to the Leinster Youths Final in Lansdowne Road. Naturally enough, I couldn't play, not being a registered player with the club.

MANY years later, the coach of that team told me that the club had asked the Leinster Branch if I could be re-registered with the club instead of with the school, so that I could play. They were turned down.

My point is this; there must have been quite a difference between the standard of Schools' Rugby vs Youths' Rugby if the club were willing to try that to secure my services for the final, even though I was definitely only a 'journeyman' player in school.

Enright

Agree re the amount of training each player gets, another aspect is how many schools players still play after senior cup, club players tend to have longer careers

The Lost Sheep

Its mindset etc as well. Schools train together more, are in classes together and youths will never have that but clubs are improving. The standards of coaching in clubs is way better now. There is more and more clubs getting gyms and getting s+c coaches with their underage teams not just their top adult teams. There is also more underage youths teams training twice/three times a week and not just for an hour a week(not that's anything wrong with that)

Youths players do tend to play longer overall as in some places you can go from 8-18/19 or mainly 12/13 to 18/19 without playing 1 game of rugby for a club so you have no links/connections when you finish your leaving cert and unless really determined have no next team to automatically play with. That needs to change but will IRFU and the branches do the required work to change that?

milosh

In the school I work in:
1st years do 3 pitch sessions and 2 s+c session a week and 1 match per week
2nd years do 3 pitch sessions, 2 s+c and 1 match
JCT 3 pitch 2 s+c and 2 matches (or a 4th pitch session)
Seniors do 3 pitch and 3 s+c with one or two matches

Our cup teams start back in the gym in mid July

Most clubs don't have the coaching resources and gym time to cater for this level of commitment.

The vast majority of our lads also play Football and/or hurling with a good number also playing soccer. It's a myth that schools players focus solely on rugby with youths players playing more sports.

We also have nearly a 100% player retention rate to under 20s at club level despite not having a club in our town. There are two or three really progressive clubs who make a big effort to sign our lads up. If the clubs make an effort to recruit and integrate schools players into their teams then players will play for them. It isn't up up to the IRFU to make sure this happens.

The Lost Sheep

milosh wrote: »

In the school I work in:
1st years do 3 pitch sessions and 2 s+c session a week and 1 match per week
2nd years do 3 pitch sessions, 2 s+c and 1 match
JCT 3 pitch 2 s+c and 2 matches (or a 4th pitch session)
Seniors do 3 pitch and 3 s+c with one or two matches

Our cup teams start back in the gym in mid July

Most clubs don't have the coaching resources and gym time to cater for this level of commitment.

The vast majority of our lads also play Football and/or hurling with a good number also playing soccer. It's a myth that schools players focus solely on rugby with youths players playing more sports.

We also have nearly a 100% player retention rate to under 20s at club level despite not having a club in our town. There are two or three really progressive clubs who make a big effort to sign our lads up. If the clubs make an effort to recruit and integrate schools players into their teams then players will play for them. It isn't up up to the IRFU to make sure this happens.

IRFU have major role in conjunction with the schools and clubs. It is up to IRFU to make this happen as its part of their role in the sport to maintain and keep numbers in the sport.
Yes many clubs don't have resources of schools. I don't think it really is a myth that schools players focus solely on rugby. Of course there is a good few who will play other sports but in the main the main schools will have players primarily focused on 1 sport.

Quin_Dub

locum-motion wrote: »

Admittedly, this was 25+ years ago, but I was a boarder in one of the biggish Dublin rugby schools.

As far as Inter Cert, rugby was compulsory unless you had a medical reason not to play. After IC, you were allowed give up, but only if you took up an alternative.

There was training every day, and matches almost every Wed and Sat afternoon. (We had classes on both Wed and Sat morning)

Twice a week, the school put out 12 teams:

U13 A, B & C
U14 A, B & C
U15 A (JCT), B & C
U16 A & B
U18 A (SCT), B, C & D

Throughout my entire rugby career, I was, shall we say, a 'grass roots' player. I never played for any of the above 'A' teams. I played U16 B, and then U18 C for two years (the second one as Captain), and that was the modest height of my Schools' Rugby career.

On the other hand, I used to do pre-season training with my home town club's Youth section, and train/play with them in friendlies during Christmas/Easter holidays at U16 & U18 level (strictly against the rules, of course, but sure they were only friendlies)

When I was at U18 level, my club's team got to the Leinster Youths Final in Lansdowne Road. Naturally enough, I couldn't play, not being a registered player with the club.

MANY years later, the coach of that team told me that the club had asked the Leinster Branch if I could be re-registered with the club instead of with the school, so that I could play. They were turned down.

My point is this; there must have been quite a difference between the standard of Schools' Rugby vs Youths' Rugby if the club were willing to try that to secure my services for the final, even though I was definitely only a 'journeyman' player in school.

Thankfully they have changed the rules around Schools players now - In my day (and yours) simply attending a Rugby playing school meant that you could not play for a club side at all.

Now only players that are on nominated squads in schools are excluded - Each school has to submit 2 squads (JCT and SCT) of about 30 players , if a player is not on those squads they can continue to play for their clubs. If a player on a school squad doesn't get to play a cup game then they can go back to playing for their club when their schools involvement in the Cup is over...

This makes a big difference to Clubs that are in a rugby schools catchment area.

The Lost Sheep

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Thankfully they have changed the rules around Schools players now - In my day (and yours) simply attending a Rugby playing school meant that you could not play for a club side at all.

Now only players that are on nominated squads in schools are excluded - Each school has to submit 2 squads (JCT and SCT) of about 30 players , if a player is not on those squads they can continue to play for their clubs. If a player on a school squad doesn't get to play a cup game then they can go back to playing for their club when their schools involvement in the Cup is over...

This makes a big difference to Clubs that are in a rugby schools catchment area.

That is meant to be the case where schools name squads of 26-30 and if not in those squads you can play for your club but that isn't reality especially in Limerick. The only real area where clubs and schools go into real conflict is Limerick. Everywhere else it isn't as much of an issue. In Cork there is only 2 schools and a bigger population than in Limerick, in Dublin in the main the seniors clubs in the city don't compete in youths competitions
In Limerick clubs should name 26 or so in a squad and release the rest to play youths rugby but normally there either isn't 26 named or they try list squads at under 15/17 and ultimately many clubs in Limerick struggle at times to field in competitions

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That is meant to be the case where schools name squads of 26-30 and if not in those squads you can play for your club but that isn't reality especially in Limerick. The only real area where clubs and schools go into real conflict is Limerick. Everywhere else it isn't as much of an issue. In Cork there is only 2 schools and a bigger population than in Limerick, in Dublin in the main the seniors clubs in the city don't compete in youths competitions
In Limerick clubs should name 26 or so in a squad and release the rest to play youths rugby but normally there either isn't 26 named or they try list squads at under 15/17 and ultimately many clubs in Limerick struggle at times to field in competitions

You correct to a certain extent , I've witnessed it myself. My club, whilst not in Limerick loses a few players to the Limerick schools every year.

They do try to play silly-buggers, although this past year , the branch finally called their bluff and threatened all the schools with expulsion from the cups if they did not submit the finalised squads by a specific date. They even went so far as to publish as revised fixture list with the offending schools excluded to show that they meant it..

Unlikely to stop them continuing to mess around - I know that the players themselves are often pressurised - Fringe players being told " If you are playing for your club, then it'll be hard for us to consider you seriously for the Cup team" etc. even though the schools have no intention of those kids ever getting a sniff at a match day place...

Kids develop at different speeds , it should all be about the kids getting as much game time as possible so that they stay with the game and maybe we'll pick up a few later bloomers that don't really click until their late teens that weren't good enough at 14/15 to play JCT but were more than good enough to play at conference level with a club.

Unfortunately , not everyone sees it that way.

The Lost Sheep

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You correct to a certain extent , I've witnessed it myself. My club, whilst not in Limerick loses a few players to the Limerick schools every year.

They do try to play silly-buggers, although this past year , the branch finally called their bluff and threatened all the schools with expulsion from the cups if they did not submit the finalised squads by a specific date. They even went so far as to publish as revised fixture list with the offending schools excluded to show that they meant it..

Unlikely to stop them continuing to mess around - I know that the players themselves are often pressurised - Fringe players being told " If you are playing for your club, then it'll be hard for us to consider you seriously for the Cup team" etc. even though the schools have no intention of those kids ever getting a sniff at a match day place...

Kids develop at different speeds , it should all be about the kids getting as much game time as possible so that they stay with the game and maybe we'll pick up a few later bloomers that don't really click until their late teens that weren't good enough at 14/15 to play JCT but were more than good enough to play at conference level with a club.

Unfortunately , not everyone sees it that way.

The Branch didn't really call the schools bluff. The only way things will stop is if some players at under 15/17/18 who are not getting game time with the school and want to play with a club and are not released and the parents of those kids take the matter up elsewhere or if clubs in the city refuse to let schools games be played in their grounds and schools have to look elsewhere to play games.
"Conference level" with a club??

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Branch didn't really call the schools bluff. The only way things will stop is if some players at under 15/17/18 who are not getting game time with the school and want to play with a club and are not released and the parents of those kids take the matter up elsewhere or if clubs in the city refuse to let schools games be played in their grounds and schools have to look elsewhere to play games.

You are right there , when there are issues it needs to be highlighted by the clubs and parents.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

"Conference level" with a club??

In North Munster at least ,there are 2 tiers of League competition , "League" and "Conference".

The bigger clubs either play League only or sometimes field 2 teams .

For example , Shannon or Garryowen will play in the League and sometimes field a team in Conference as well , but a smaller club like St Marys or Newport would typically only field a team in the conference competition.

The Lost Sheep

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You are right there , when there are issues it needs to be highlighted by the clubs and parents.

And it has to be both.

In North Munster at least ,there are 2 tiers of League competition , "League" and "Conference".

The bigger clubs either play League only or sometimes field 2 teams .

For example , Shannon or Garryowen will play in the League and sometimes field a team in Conference as well , but a smaller club like St Marys or Newport would typically only field a team in the conference competition.

I get you now. Just didn't get you at first..
That's only the case in North Munster where at the younger age groups there is enough teams to split into 2 levels and in general Shannon, Garryowen, Bruff and Ennis etc field 2 teams and the rest will only field 1 side and it may be league or conference depending on year.