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Grand Canal Dock rail gone

  • 31-07-2014 9:23pm
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    Why has the rail gone from platform three at Grand Canal Dock? It always had a diesel train parked in it and a sign on the display saying not to get on it. I thought that IR were going to electrify it.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭ godtabh
    Moderator


    Why has the rail gone from platform three at Grand Canal Dock? It always had a diesel train parked in it and a sign on the display saying not to get on it. I thought that IR were going to electrify it.

    Didn't only have a 10 year permission?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ GerardKeating
    Registered User


    godtabh wrote: »
    Didn't only have a 10 year permission?

    That was the Docklands Station...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    godtabh wrote: »
    Didn't only have a 10 year permission?

    Has it been there ten years? It looks too permanent for temporary permission.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Could possibly be relaying the track. They did the same with the bay in Bray station a few months ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭ flyingsnail
    Registered User


    There are some track layout alterations being made at grand canal dock / Pearse yard at the moment as part of the city centre re-signaling works. AFAIK P3 was to be relayed as an operational platform as part of these works.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ petronius
    Registered User


    It is always easier to take up rail lines than put them back - recall them taking some up in the west for refurb the refurbs ended up on the galway line i think and were never put back


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,516 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu
    Registered User


    major work going on at GCD this week - they have the whole area fenced off and heavy equipment in the adjacent office block's carpark.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,530 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd
    Registered User


    loyatemu wrote: »
    major work going on at GCD this week - they have the whole area fenced off and heavy equipment in the adjacent office block's carpark.
    i presume its part of this this tender for signaling and associated works
    http://www.mytenders.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP410499
    Phase 3 comprises Connolly Station to Sandymount, with permanent way changes at Grand Canal Dock (GCD).
    <snip>
    The Phase 3 Signalling, Telecoms and OHLE works are comprised of the following:
    — Provision of signalling to cater for a centre road terminating turn back facility for southbound trains at Grand Canal Dock Station adjacent to platform 2.
    <snip>
    Modification of the layout of the overhead line equipment (OHLE) as necessary for a turnback facility at Grand Canal Dock station.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    They also installed a new pedestrian bridge at Sydney Parade. Lovely job, and they have removed the UGLY temporary structure -not that they need a pedestrian bridge since there are two entrances to the station for the last many years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,516 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu
    Registered User


    they could do with direct access from the island platform at GCD to Barrow St - its already jammed on the overbridge in the mornings, will get worse when the northern line trains are terminating on that platform as well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,530 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd
    Registered User


    They also installed a new pedestrian bridge at Sydney Parade. Lovely job, and they have removed the UGLY temporary structure -not that they need a pedestrian bridge since there are two entrances to the station for the last many years.
    how do you get to the other platform if the level crossing barriers are down?
    Which is an issue if the barriers are down for a while and youre looking to get a train from the far side of the station.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭ shoehorn
    Registered User


    Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ GerardKeating
    Registered User


    shoehorn wrote: »
    Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.

    Did they ever replace the track of platform three ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer
    Registered User


    Did they ever replace the track of platform three ?

    That work is still ongoing as part of the DASH2 City Centre Re-signalling Project.

    That platform will become the main northbound platform when the work is completed next year, and the existing northbound platform will become a turnback platform for Maynooth, Northern and Kildare line services, rather than using the Boston Sidings as at present.

    Consequently, the tracks in the area will all have to be relaid and re-signalled and the layout redesigned to facilitate this. That's not something that will happen quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,516 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu
    Registered User


    shoehorn wrote: »
    Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.

    are they just putting in an extra bridge?
    they also seem to be putting a narrow platform/walkway on the western side of the P3 track, but I can't think why this would be needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ GerardKeating
    Registered User


    loyatemu wrote: »
    are they just putting in an extra bridge?
    they also seem to be putting a narrow platform/walkway on the western side of the P3 track, but I can't think why this would be needed.

    For the drivers to change ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,516 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu
    Registered User


    For the drivers to change ?

    they can use the existing platform...


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭ shoehorn
    Registered User


    lxflyer wrote: »
    That work is still ongoing as part of the DASH2 City Centre Re-signalling Project.

    That platform will become the main northbound platform when the work is completed next year, and the existing northbound platform will become a turnback platform for Maynooth, Northern and Kildare line services, rather than using the Boston Sidings as at present.

    Consequently, the tracks in the area will all have to be relaid and re-signalled and the layout redesigned to facilitate this. That's not something that will happen quickly.

    Kildare line will terminate there too? That would make it quite busy. I assumed only a few of the Kildare trains will use the Phoenix park tunnel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer
    Registered User


    shoehorn wrote: »
    Kildare line will terminate there too? That would make it quite busy. I assumed only a few of the Kildare trains will use the Phoenix park tunnel.

    4 Kildare line trains during both the morning and evening peaks, ad one each hour off-peak is the plan.

    I never used the word "all"!

    Some Maynooth and Northern line trains will continue to Bray as at present.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    lxflyer wrote: »

    Some Maynooth and Northern line trains will continue to Bray as at present.

    I hope not. They are noisy and slower than the Dart. It would make sense to terminate all the Bray bound diesels at GCD and have a Dart following them, possibly only stopping at the main stations. The same for the return with the diesel waiting for the Dart to allow passengers to transfer across the platform. Such Darts would be advertised as connecting to Maynooth or wherever.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer
    Registered User


    I hope not. They are noisy and slower than the Dart. It would make sense to terminate all the Bray bound diesels at GCD and have a Dart following them, possibly only stopping at the main stations. The same for the return with the diesel waiting for the Dart to allow passengers to transfer across the platform. Such Darts would be advertised as connecting to Maynooth or wherever.

    And quite how are they all going to fit there?

    There isn't and won't be sufficient capacity for all those trains to turn back at a single platform at GCD. Some of the diesels stable in Bray for the day. Plus they have very decent loadings south of Pearse.

    Given that DART will be operating every 10 minutes I would suggest it will be them holding up the diesels rather than the other way around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,372 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston
    Registered User


    Where is the new footbridge located?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    lxflyer wrote: »
    And quite how are they all going to fit there?

    There isn't and won't be sufficient capacity for all those trains to turn back at a single platform at GCD. Some of the diesels stable in Bray for the day. Plus they have very decent loadings south of Pearse.

    Given that DART will be operating every 10 minutes I would suggest it will be them holding up the diesels rather than the other way around.

    You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

    I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

    How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭ shoehorn
    Registered User


    You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

    I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

    How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?

    I would hope they would allow for longer turn-around times than that, to allow for late incomings, but with the volume of services planning to terminate at GCD, I can't see them allowing for more than 5 mins turn-around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭ shoehorn
    Registered User


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Where is the new footbridge located?

    Grand Canal Dock station, between island platform (1,2) and the ticket barrier shed off Platform 3. It's in addition to the existing footbridge but the planning notice says it's only for evacuation use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,372 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston
    Registered User


    shoehorn wrote: »
    Grand Canal Dock station, between island platform (1,2) and the ticket barrier shed off Platform 3. It's in addition to the existing footbridge but the planning notice says it's only for evacuation use.

    Ah, I see. I'd hoped maybe they were going to add something to allow people to enter from Clanwilliam Terrace side of the station. I'm so lazy, but it'd save a good 5 minute extra walk for me - not to be sniffed at when it's pouring rain!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    Why do they have a bridge at GCD when there would appear to be a better option of a tunnel since the track is already elevated quite a lot above street level?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer
    Registered User


    You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

    I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

    How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?

    Where did I say that all of them were stabled in Bray? I said "some".

    5 minutes would be the bare minimum, but it leaves very little recovery time unless that is put in at Connolly en route to Grand Canal Dock. Recovery time is essential in any intensive timetable to allow for delays. The numbers of trains involved mean that running some to Bray will remain necessary.

    With a 10 minute DART service there will be not be any skip-stopping by DART - it'll be a 10 minute service at all stations from Howth Junction to Bray.

    The extra diesels provide additional capacity that is helpful on the southern part of the route at major stations.

    I cannot understand your argument, which is basically arguing against additional capacity on the south eastern part of the line that at the same time does not impact on other services. Utterly bizarre.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell
    Moderator


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Where did I say that all of them were stabled in Bray? I said "some".

    5 minutes would be the bare minimum, but it leaves very little recovery time unless that is put in at Connolly en route to Grand Canal Dock. Recovery time is essential in any intensive timetable to allow for delays. The numbers of trains involved mean that running some to Bray will remain necessary.

    With a 10 minute DART service there will be not be any skip-stopping by DART - it'll be a 10 minute service at all stations from Howth Junction to Bray.

    The extra diesels provide additional capacity that is helpful on the southern part of the route at major stations.

    I cannot understand your argument, which is basically arguing against additional capacity on the south eastern part of the line that at the same time does not impact on other services. Utterly bizarre.

    Thank you for your answer, I know nothing about the logistics of running a railway.

    My argument is not against extra capacity, but against noisy, smelly, slow diesels providing that capacity. The running time for Darts is the same as the diesels (as far as I can tell) and I believe they are lower cost to run.

    Why can they not skip stations in peak time?

    A long time ago, I used to travel on the Metropolitan line from Baker St in London out towards Harrow and they had a whole system of fast and slow trains to split up the traffic. Fast trains (first stop - North Harrow) followed a slow one (stopping all stations) but they arrived quite a bit before them.

    As it is now, everyone tries to board the first train and one following two minutes behind runs nearly empty. If the first train skipped the first four or so stations, it would divide the customers between them. Just a thought.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer
    Registered User


    Thank you for your answer, I know nothing about the logistics of running a railway.

    My argument is not against extra capacity, but against noisy, smelly, slow diesels providing that capacity. The running time for Darts is the same as the diesels (as far as I can tell) and I believe they are lower cost to run.

    Why can they not skip stations in peak time?

    A long time ago, I used to travel on the Metropolitan line from Baker St in London out towards Harrow and they had a whole system of fast and slow trains to split up the traffic. Fast trains (first stop - North Harrow) followed a slow one (stopping all stations) but they arrived quite a bit before them.

    As it is now, everyone tries to board the first train and one following two minutes behind runs nearly empty. If the first train skipped the first four or so stations, it would divide the customers between them. Just a thought.

    The Met has separate tracks to facilitate fast and slow services.

    The DART line is just two tracks, one for each direction. So there is no point in running "fast" services as they will still be stuck behind the train in front of them. Also, your idea would mean people travelling between stations then skipped would have a nightmare trip. Not everyone is going to/from the city centre.

    Given the infrastructure in place, a consistent 10 minute DART service serving all stations is the best solution for everyone along the DART line, interspersed with diesels from the Northern, Maynooth, Kildare and Rosslare lines.

    To explain this - if you have two DARTs within 10 minutes of one another, and a Northern line train and Maynooth line service both sandwiched between them across the loop line in the city centre, one of those diesels is going to have to follow the DART to Bray - there won't be room for the both of them at GCD.

    You have to think about how much capacity the infrastructure has.

    The 29k or ICRs sets are no slower than the DART, particularly given they would skip stations so they are not holding anything up. I also think you'll find their emissions are well above required standards, so again I think you really are going OTT.


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