Grand Canal Dock rail gone

Sam Russell

Why has the rail gone from platform three at Grand Canal Dock? It always had a diesel train parked in it and a sign on the display saying not to get on it. I thought that IR were going to electrify it.

godtabh

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why has the rail gone from platform three at Grand Canal Dock? It always had a diesel train parked in it and a sign on the display saying not to get on it. I thought that IR were going to electrify it.

Didn't only have a 10 year permission?

GerardKeating

godtabh wrote: »

Didn't only have a 10 year permission?

That was the Docklands Station...

Sam Russell

godtabh wrote: »

Didn't only have a 10 year permission?

Has it been there ten years? It looks too permanent for temporary permission.

Could possibly be relaying the track. They did the same with the bay in Bray station a few months ago.

flyingsnail

There are some track layout alterations being made at grand canal dock / Pearse yard at the moment as part of the city centre re-signaling works. AFAIK P3 was to be relayed as an operational platform as part of these works.

petronius

It is always easier to take up rail lines than put them back - recall them taking some up in the west for refurb the refurbs ended up on the galway line i think and were never put back

loyatemu

major work going on at GCD this week - they have the whole area fenced off and heavy equipment in the adjacent office block's carpark.

munchkin_utd

loyatemu wrote: »

major work going on at GCD this week - they have the whole area fenced off and heavy equipment in the adjacent office block's carpark.

i presume its part of this this tender for signaling and associated works
http://www.mytenders.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP410499

Phase 3 comprises Connolly Station to Sandymount, with permanent way changes at Grand Canal Dock (GCD).
<snip>
The Phase 3 Signalling, Telecoms and OHLE works are comprised of the following:
— Provision of signalling to cater for a centre road terminating turn back facility for southbound trains at Grand Canal Dock Station adjacent to platform 2.
<snip>
Modification of the layout of the overhead line equipment (OHLE) as necessary for a turnback facility at Grand Canal Dock station.

Sam Russell

They also installed a new pedestrian bridge at Sydney Parade. Lovely job, and they have removed the UGLY temporary structure -not that they need a pedestrian bridge since there are two entrances to the station for the last many years.

loyatemu

they could do with direct access from the island platform at GCD to Barrow St - its already jammed on the overbridge in the mornings, will get worse when the northern line trains are terminating on that platform as well.

munchkin_utd

Sam Russell wrote: »

They also installed a new pedestrian bridge at Sydney Parade. Lovely job, and they have removed the UGLY temporary structure -not that they need a pedestrian bridge since there are two entrances to the station for the last many years.

how do you get to the other platform if the level crossing barriers are down?
Which is an issue if the barriers are down for a while and youre looking to get a train from the far side of the station.

shoehorn

Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.

GerardKeating

shoehorn wrote: »

Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.

Did they ever replace the track of platform three ?

LXFlyer

GerardKeating wrote: »

Did they ever replace the track of platform three ?

That work is still ongoing as part of the DASH2 City Centre Re-signalling Project.

That platform will become the main northbound platform when the work is completed next year, and the existing northbound platform will become a turnback platform for Maynooth, Northern and Kildare line services, rather than using the Boston Sidings as at present.

Consequently, the tracks in the area will all have to be relaid and re-signalled and the layout redesigned to facilitate this. That's not something that will happen quickly.

loyatemu

shoehorn wrote: »

Main section of new footbridge has been lifted into place at gcd station. Works ongoing.

are they just putting in an extra bridge?
they also seem to be putting a narrow platform/walkway on the western side of the P3 track, but I can't think why this would be needed.

GerardKeating

loyatemu wrote: »

are they just putting in an extra bridge?
they also seem to be putting a narrow platform/walkway on the western side of the P3 track, but I can't think why this would be needed.

For the drivers to change ?

loyatemu

GerardKeating wrote: »

For the drivers to change ?

they can use the existing platform...

shoehorn

lxflyer wrote: »

That work is still ongoing as part of the DASH2 City Centre Re-signalling Project.

That platform will become the main northbound platform when the work is completed next year, and the existing northbound platform will become a turnback platform for Maynooth, Northern and Kildare line services, rather than using the Boston Sidings as at present.

Consequently, the tracks in the area will all have to be relaid and re-signalled and the layout redesigned to facilitate this. That's not something that will happen quickly.

Kildare line will terminate there too? That would make it quite busy. I assumed only a few of the Kildare trains will use the Phoenix park tunnel.

LXFlyer

shoehorn wrote: »

Kildare line will terminate there too? That would make it quite busy. I assumed only a few of the Kildare trains will use the Phoenix park tunnel.

4 Kildare line trains during both the morning and evening peaks, ad one each hour off-peak is the plan.

I never used the word "all"!

Some Maynooth and Northern line trains will continue to Bray as at present.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

Some Maynooth and Northern line trains will continue to Bray as at present.

I hope not. They are noisy and slower than the Dart. It would make sense to terminate all the Bray bound diesels at GCD and have a Dart following them, possibly only stopping at the main stations. The same for the return with the diesel waiting for the Dart to allow passengers to transfer across the platform. Such Darts would be advertised as connecting to Maynooth or wherever.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I hope not. They are noisy and slower than the Dart. It would make sense to terminate all the Bray bound diesels at GCD and have a Dart following them, possibly only stopping at the main stations. The same for the return with the diesel waiting for the Dart to allow passengers to transfer across the platform. Such Darts would be advertised as connecting to Maynooth or wherever.

And quite how are they all going to fit there?

There isn't and won't be sufficient capacity for all those trains to turn back at a single platform at GCD. Some of the diesels stable in Bray for the day. Plus they have very decent loadings south of Pearse.

Given that DART will be operating every 10 minutes I would suggest it will be them holding up the diesels rather than the other way around.

MJohnston

Where is the new footbridge located?

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

And quite how are they all going to fit there?

There isn't and won't be sufficient capacity for all those trains to turn back at a single platform at GCD. Some of the diesels stable in Bray for the day. Plus they have very decent loadings south of Pearse.

Given that DART will be operating every 10 minutes I would suggest it will be them holding up the diesels rather than the other way around.

You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?

shoehorn

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?

I would hope they would allow for longer turn-around times than that, to allow for late incomings, but with the volume of services planning to terminate at GCD, I can't see them allowing for more than 5 mins turn-around.

shoehorn

MJohnston wrote: »

Where is the new footbridge located?

Grand Canal Dock station, between island platform (1,2) and the ticket barrier shed off Platform 3. It's in addition to the existing footbridge but the planning notice says it's only for evacuation use.

MJohnston

shoehorn wrote: »

Grand Canal Dock station, between island platform (1,2) and the ticket barrier shed off Platform 3. It's in addition to the existing footbridge but the planning notice says it's only for evacuation use.

Ah, I see. I'd hoped maybe they were going to add something to allow people to enter from Clanwilliam Terrace side of the station. I'm so lazy, but it'd save a good 5 minute extra walk for me - not to be sniffed at when it's pouring rain!

Sam Russell

Why do they have a bridge at GCD when there would appear to be a better option of a tunnel since the track is already elevated quite a lot above street level?

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably right, but there are at least two empty 'out of service' diesels that head back from Bray at about 10am every day so they are not stabled in Bray during the day.

I am suggesting that it is the Darts carry the passengers south of Pearse, and with a 10 min service there will be no need for extra Darts to carry those passengers from the diesels. The running time for the diesels is much the same for Darts, except the Darts stop at every station, although it might be worth it for peak hour Darts to skip some, less busy, stations to improve transit times.

How long does it take to turn a diesel round at the likes of GCD? Could it be done in less than 5 mins?

Where did I say that all of them were stabled in Bray? I said "some".

5 minutes would be the bare minimum, but it leaves very little recovery time unless that is put in at Connolly en route to Grand Canal Dock. Recovery time is essential in any intensive timetable to allow for delays. The numbers of trains involved mean that running some to Bray will remain necessary.

With a 10 minute DART service there will be not be any skip-stopping by DART - it'll be a 10 minute service at all stations from Howth Junction to Bray.

The extra diesels provide additional capacity that is helpful on the southern part of the route at major stations.

I cannot understand your argument, which is basically arguing against additional capacity on the south eastern part of the line that at the same time does not impact on other services. Utterly bizarre.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

Where did I say that all of them were stabled in Bray? I said "some".

5 minutes would be the bare minimum, but it leaves very little recovery time unless that is put in at Connolly en route to Grand Canal Dock. Recovery time is essential in any intensive timetable to allow for delays. The numbers of trains involved mean that running some to Bray will remain necessary.

With a 10 minute DART service there will be not be any skip-stopping by DART - it'll be a 10 minute service at all stations from Howth Junction to Bray.

The extra diesels provide additional capacity that is helpful on the southern part of the route at major stations.

I cannot understand your argument, which is basically arguing against additional capacity on the south eastern part of the line that at the same time does not impact on other services. Utterly bizarre.

Thank you for your answer, I know nothing about the logistics of running a railway.

My argument is not against extra capacity, but against noisy, smelly, slow diesels providing that capacity. The running time for Darts is the same as the diesels (as far as I can tell) and I believe they are lower cost to run.

Why can they not skip stations in peak time?

A long time ago, I used to travel on the Metropolitan line from Baker St in London out towards Harrow and they had a whole system of fast and slow trains to split up the traffic. Fast trains (first stop - North Harrow) followed a slow one (stopping all stations) but they arrived quite a bit before them.

As it is now, everyone tries to board the first train and one following two minutes behind runs nearly empty. If the first train skipped the first four or so stations, it would divide the customers between them. Just a thought.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thank you for your answer, I know nothing about the logistics of running a railway.

My argument is not against extra capacity, but against noisy, smelly, slow diesels providing that capacity. The running time for Darts is the same as the diesels (as far as I can tell) and I believe they are lower cost to run.

Why can they not skip stations in peak time?

A long time ago, I used to travel on the Metropolitan line from Baker St in London out towards Harrow and they had a whole system of fast and slow trains to split up the traffic. Fast trains (first stop - North Harrow) followed a slow one (stopping all stations) but they arrived quite a bit before them.

As it is now, everyone tries to board the first train and one following two minutes behind runs nearly empty. If the first train skipped the first four or so stations, it would divide the customers between them. Just a thought.

The Met has separate tracks to facilitate fast and slow services.

The DART line is just two tracks, one for each direction. So there is no point in running "fast" services as they will still be stuck behind the train in front of them. Also, your idea would mean people travelling between stations then skipped would have a nightmare trip. Not everyone is going to/from the city centre.

Given the infrastructure in place, a consistent 10 minute DART service serving all stations is the best solution for everyone along the DART line, interspersed with diesels from the Northern, Maynooth, Kildare and Rosslare lines.

To explain this - if you have two DARTs within 10 minutes of one another, and a Northern line train and Maynooth line service both sandwiched between them across the loop line in the city centre, one of those diesels is going to have to follow the DART to Bray - there won't be room for the both of them at GCD.

You have to think about how much capacity the infrastructure has.

The 29k or ICRs sets are no slower than the DART, particularly given they would skip stations so they are not holding anything up. I also think you'll find their emissions are well above required standards, so again I think you really are going OTT.

loyatemu

shoehorn wrote: »

Grand Canal Dock station, between island platform (1,2) and the ticket barrier shed off Platform 3. It's in addition to the existing footbridge but the planning notice says it's only for evacuation use.

that doesn't make any sense - why would you build a bridge and only use it for emergencies?

BonkeyDonker

loyatemu wrote: »

that doesn't make any sense - why would you build a bridge and only use it for emergencies?

because you may have been told to or shut the station?

markpb

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

because you may have been told to or shut the station?

That doesn't really answer the question. If the bridge had to be built for evacuation purposes, why not *also* use it for day to day purposes too?

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

The Met has separate tracks to facilitate fast and slow services.

The DART line is just two tracks, one for each direction. So there is no point in running "fast" services as they will still be stuck behind the train in front of them. Also, your idea would mean people travelling between stations then skipped would have a nightmare trip. Not everyone is going to/from the city centre.

Given the infrastructure in place, a consistent 10 minute DART service serving all stations is the best solution for everyone along the DART line, interspersed with diesels from the Northern, Maynooth, Kildare and Rosslare lines.

To explain this - if you have two DARTs within 10 minutes of one another, and a Northern line train and Maynooth line service both sandwiched between them across the loop line in the city centre, one of those diesels is going to have to follow the DART to Bray - there won't be room for the both of them at GCD.

You have to think about how much capacity the infrastructure has.

The 29k or ICRs sets are no slower than the DART, particularly given they would skip stations so they are not holding anything up. I also think you'll find their emissions are well above required standards, so again I think you really are going OTT.

I appreciate the Met has four tracks, but is much longer than the Dart system.

If we take the situation a Piearse, a dart arrives at 16:58 and next stop is Blackrock. Next Dart arrives at 17:01 - all stations. Passengers on the Dart for stations before Blackrock then get off and wait for the next one, as do those on the platform travelling to stations before Blackrock. This first train will then be 10 mins ahead of the second train from Blackrock on, with a better balance of passenger numbers. This station skipping already happens with 29k trains.

Acceleration of 29ks is much slower than Darts, and the noise is much greater, both at the station and travelling up to speed. They are also very smelly.

How does the 10 minute frequency affect the level crossings between GCD and Booterstown? The gates could be closed at some points for most of the time.

LXFlyer

I'm only going to say this one more time.

The NTA have decided that they want a standard all stops 10 minute frequency from every DART station between Howth Junction and Bray. That's their decision.

So going on and on about DARTs skipping stations is pointless. It's not going to happen.

As for the 29k sets - well if you dislike them that much, don't use them. No one is forcing you to.

But that doesn't mean that everyone on the lines served by them should be forced to change trains just because you don't like them.

Cookie_Monster

having capacity at Pearse to store the 29ks would solve some of the above and remove the need to run to Bray, no? Pity all the functionality was ripped out.

Cool Mo D

Don't forget, there is still sidings south of Pearse, and a third platform at Dun Laoghaire to turn diesel trains. GCD will be the best spot to terminate trains due to the lack of conflicts, but there are other options.

shoehorn

I wonder if the Maynooth services that currently turn back at Connolly platform 7 will continue to do so, or go onwards to the new GCD terminus. Probably the former, since the the platform 7 turnback avoids the bottleneck through Connolly which will be even more congested with Kildare line trains and more DARTs coming through, albeit with the improved signalling.

LXFlyer

Most of those trains that terminate at Connolly turn around quickly to go back out so I'd be surprised if that changed.

Going around to GCD would take far more time.

shoehorn

Third rail is back at GCD, and track / signalling work seems to be progressing nicely. They have new signal lights put up and covered over for the moment.

Sam Russell

Have they started on the overhead electric wires yet?

shoehorn

Sam Russell wrote:

Have they started on the overhead electric wires yet?

Doesn't look like it. None over platform 1 yet anyway.

shoehorn

Overhead wires now in place over platform 1

Sam Russell

Great to hear. How soon till we get Darts on platform 1?

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

Great to hear. How soon till we get Darts on platform 1?

they haven't finished the track yet, so could be a while.

Sam Russell

No rush then. I suppose they have to wait till they get round to fishing the signalling project as well.

Mind you, no rush fits Irish Rail so well.

spacetweek

Sam Russell wrote: »

No rush then. I suppose they have to wait till they get round to fishing the signalling project as well.

Mind you, no rush fits Irish Rail so well.

Launch date for the project is Spring 2016 so some time before then.

shoehorn

Northbound trains are now using platform 1. Platform 2 is buffered off at the south end. New footbridge is now open, in addition to the existing one!

shoehorn

photo attached

spacetweek

shoehorn wrote: »

photo attached

Big purple train station! I'm guessing you work in Google?