What impact does support have on a team?

zombieHanalei

Bit of discussion in the Kilkenny v Limerick forum on this one, why not throw it open as a general question?

Does it make a difference? Psychology is a very important part of the puzzle for any panel of inter county players, just one of the many things that needs to go right. It's debatable how much of a psychological impact the crowd can have on a team.

Limerick had great support at Croke Park last August but lost to Clare. Some believe that the support and hype in the lead up to that game contributed to the teams below par performance when the team appeared to freeze. (Not to detract from Clare's performance that day, well worth their win)

Is it a psychological lift to a team to run out to a stadium packed to the brim with their supporters? Can the supporters drag the team over the line in a tight game? Or could support have a negative impact in any way? Support brings with it pressures of its own afterall.

keane2097

A large proportion of research associated with home advantage has examined the crowd as causality. This research has taken several differing routes into how crowd may affect the game directly or indirectly and has had findings showing home advantage as a result of officiating influences from the crowd (Nevill, Balmer & Williams, 2002; Dohmen, 2008; Agnew & Carron, 1994) influences on the players (Thirer & Rampey, 1979) and also how the crowd is presented (Nevill, Newell & Gale, 1996; Dohmen, 2008; Zeller & Jerkovac, 1988; Schwartz & Barsky, 1977) has effects of the outcome of the game.

Structure of the Crowd

Agnew & Carron (1994) found that the only significant predictor of game outcome was crowd density. It was indicated that as crowd density increases, home advantage increases. Nevill, Newell & Gale (1996) observed significant home advantage with larger crowds in football. The largest home advantage however was found in the English first division compared to advantage in the premier league. This involved the percentages of wins, away players being sent off and home penalties scored. Interestingly the English first division have considerably less crowd sizes but more advantage, suggesting that once the crowd has reached a certain size or density, a peak in the home advantage is observed. Schwartz & Barskys (1977) research found that the advantage in Major League Baseball increased with crowd density, increasing from 48% in relatively empty (less than 20% capacity) stadiums to 55% when the stadium was between 20-40% capacity and increasing further to 57% when the crowd density was greater than 40% capacity.

Nevill, Balmer & Williams (2002) assessed whether decisions of qualified referees could be influenced by the noise of the crowd and discovered that the presence of crowd noise did have a dramatic effect on the decisions made by the qualified referees with further investigation into this effect finding crowd noise did not actually have an effect on penalising away players more; but rather penalising home players less.

It was also found that when you silence crowd noise, home advantage is virtually eliminated, again suggesting that social factors play a part in influencing decision making of officials.

http://www.thesportinmind.com/articles/crowd-and-the-home-advantage/

Amprodude

I tend to believe it works except for Mayo of course.

K-9

I was thinking that it wouldn't have as much effect in GAA as soccer, keane2097 stats would suggest similar. I'd say as football grounds atmosphere improved in the Premier League era things became less tribal, plus with the introduction of corporate boxes and that type of stuff, less intimidating. The top clubs grounds can be morgues at times.

Would be interesting to see a stat analysis of it, particularly of grounds like Aughrim, places considered tough places to go to and see what affect the crowd may have. Quality of opposition and other effects would need to counted to make it anyway accurate. Dublin in Croker might suggest it probably isn't that much of an effect either way.

LMK

I believe it often makes a difference if the attendance in the stadium is low (probably <50%) because of a lack of atmosphere. As to the outcome of the contest I would say its not really relevant, so if there is a bumper attendance at a match in a neutral venue with one teams support outnumbering the others by say 3:1 I don't think its a major advantage. Actually this is kinda like the second post on here!!

keane2097

LMK wrote: »

I believe it often makes a difference if the attendance in the stadium is low (probably <50%) because of a lack of atmosphere. As to the outcome of the contest I would say its not really relevant, so if there is a bumper attendance at a match in a neutral venue with one teams support outnumbering the others by say 3:1 I don't think its a major advantage. Actually this is kinda like the second post on here!!

If you mean my post you might have mis-read or I might not have quoted the right sections (or I'm mis-reading your post!).

Basically, all the studies have shown that if the crowd is over a certain size, a partisan crowd has a clear effect on the outcome, most measurably by affecting refereeing decisions in favour of the crowd's team.

Another interesting aspect was that during sustained periods of jeering, the "away" team become more likely to make unforced errors.

LMK

keane2097 wrote: »

If you mean my post you might have mis-read or I might not have quoted the right sections (or I'm mis-reading your post!).

Your post is interesting it also brings home advantage into the frame, I was taking this out of the equation, home advantage is definitely a big factor for a team & combined with large no's supporting that brings a new dynamic into play, not wanting to be beaten in you own house ect (Rubgy, ROG + Munster comes to mind), I was just commenting on support alone at a neutral venue and giving my 2 cent's worth.

keane2097

LMK wrote: »

Your post is interesting it also brings home advantage into the frame, I was taking this out of the equation, home advantage is definitely a big factor for a team & combined with large no's supporting that brings a new dynamic into play, not wanting to be beaten in you own house ect (Rubgy, ROG + Munster comes to mind), I was just commenting on support alone at a neutral venue and giving my 2 cent's worth.

Good man, I can see where we were diverging.

I think the research shows that size and make up of the crowd on its own can have a bearing on the result, but you're right that there are other aspects to genuine "home" advantage that add even more to it.

My reading would be that the crowd affects external factors like the ref and the opposition, while the location itself has a bigger impact on the home team for the reasons you mentioned.

LMK

keane2097 wrote: »

My reading would be that the crowd affects external factors like the ref and the opposition, while the location itself has a bigger impact on the home team for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm not really convinced about crowds affecting the opposition, any-time I hear a commentator mention it I think its a lazy throwaway remark, I do think that as Nicky English has said in the past that a symbiosis exists between a team and its followers but I think that its led by the Team and the supporters sense the mood has changed positively in the match they definitely get more actively involved, but they are the sheep in the whole scenario IMO.

savannahkat

On the assumption that crowd support is a factor we should build a one hundred thousand capacity stadium in Kilkenny purely for our footballers and ban traveling supporters. We would have to pay the home supporters to fill the stadium then bring on the Dubs or Kerry or whoever. It wont matter though we will still get hockey'd out of sight. The point is, it depends on how even the teams are when the tiniest advantage just might count.

keane2097

savannahkat wrote: »

On the assumption that crowd support is a factor we should build a one hundred thousand capacity stadium in Kilkenny purely for our footballers and ban traveling supporters. We would have to pay the home supporters to fill the stadium then bring on the Dubs or Kerry or whoever. It wont matter though we will still get hockey'd out of sight. The point is, it depends on how even the teams are when the tiniest advantage just might count.

Yeah this is obviously correct.

It's the sort of thinking that gets some Dublin fans up in arms when people mention the footballers and Croke Park, but the argument isn't that they wouldn't have beaten Meath handily in the Leinster final if it was played in Navan, rather that if Meath played Armagh in Navan it might be a slightly different proposition than if they played them in the Athletic Grounds this weekend.

By and large, the best teams win other than the occasional upset, but in very tight games (which are more likely to have bigger crowd participation of course) it can become a factor.

Probably still not a massive factor, but research I've done would suggest it's worth on average a little under two points in football.

citykat

keane2097 wrote: »

Another interesting aspect was that during sustained periods of jeering, the "away" team become more likely to make unforced errors.

Good thing (for away teams) there's no jeering in the GAA. :rolleyes:

keane2097

citykat wrote: »

Good thing (for away teams) there's no jeering in the GAA. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why the roll eyes are in there tbh

nice_guy80

In the professional sports it should make no difference.

It could well make a difference for amateur players.

bruschi

crowd factor does make a difference, IMO. I'll give 2 examples that I know of.

Firstly, in 1996 as the parade went around the field before the start of the game, the Wexford team lined up walking down the Cusack side towards a Hill 16 absolutely packed full of Wexford fans, whilst Limerick ran off before they even got to the halfway line and Wexford kept going to walk by their supporters.

This was one factor of the game that day, and if anyone would be lucky enough to speak to Griffin or any of the players, they'll you about the contrast in approaches of both teams to the start of the game at least. If anyone watches it, Limerick come out first, tearing out on the field and one of their players broke a sideline flag pulling on it. They sprinted out jumping and lepping around, and even for the presidential presentation, they are jumping up and down and fidgety. Compare it to Wexford, who came out, went to their positions for the warm ups, and then all lined up, helmets off, and shook the presidents hand. As someone said, when the teams are close, the tiniest things can make a difference. I fully believe Wexford were far more mentally prepared that day, and the impact of the Crowd just before throw in was the cherry on top to start that game.

I cant get a decent picture of it, but I have one at home of the team walking down the Cusack side all looking up to the hill. This screenshot is as close to giving an impression of it


the other one, and a loss for Wexford, was the year we lost to Dublin in an early round Leinster game in 2010. There was just shy of 50,000 at the game. If there was 1,000 Wexford people at it, I'd say that was about it. We were up by 8-2 at half time, but Dublin slowly but surely clawed their way back after being booed off at half time. They got a goal with 5 minutes to go, and the noise from the Hill was deafening. I was in the lower Hogan, not far from pitchside. It was phenomenal the noise and reaction. There was so few of us there from Wexford, and even those around us felt intimidated by it, so I can only imagine how the players were out on the field. The booing definitely affected free takers too, despite Forde hitting an equaliser from a free to go to extra time. But there was only ever going to be one winner after that. Thats not to say the crowd won the game, but without doubt, you could see the reaction on the field from both sides once the hill got going.



was a picture from the day. pretty normal for any Dublin game I suppose, but it certainly makes a difference, and when the margins are that small, it does help, and without doubt that day, it made a difference.

if you go to other sports, the Seattle fans for their Seahawks team in American Football are renowned for their loud and raucous supporters. Their stadium was even designed to get the most out of the acoustics to make the place louder. not often you see a stadium designed to make the crowd louder, but thats what they did. They hold the world record for loudest crowd at a game, at 137.6 decibels, similar level to the noise of an airplane jet engine at 100 feet. It also registered around 1 or 2 on an earthquake seismometer.




I definitely think though that standing areas behind the goals make an atmosphere. Without doubt, and that atmosphere does make a difference to teams.

nice_guy80

You forgot to mention the stroke a Wexford player pulled on the Limerick free taker in 1996

the greatest support I have ever seen in the GAA was the 2006 minor football final replay in Ennis between Roscommon and Kerry.
out of the 20,000 people there that day 19000 of them must have been from Roscommon.