Malaysian Flight 17 - An alternative theory

Brown Bomber

I am not saying this is the most probable explanation, I haven't been following this story in any great detail and am largely ignorant of the facts on the ground. If it wasn't a tragic accident carried out by ill-trained anti-coup civilian militias and involves subterfuge then the most likely (in my opinion) perpetrators would be the state of Israel and their fanatically anti-Russian Zionist Neocon allies in Washington.

There are two reasons to believe this.
1) The Malaysian plane was downed within 20 minutes of the commencement of the Israeli barbarism committed against the people of Gaza.
2) The once again involvement of Schipol Airport. (From a previous post):

I would ask everyone to watch this short (10 mins) news documentary from South Africa

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGwBX...eature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POWvg...eature=related

It offers proof on how Israeli intelligence agents from Shin Bet are operating behind the front of an airline security firms in foreign countries.

Now bear that in mind in relation to the Christmas Day attack. ICTS were responsible for security at Schipol Airport allowing the bomber to board flight 253.

The company responsible is ICTS-International. ICTS is an Israeli owned company that was formed in the 80's by former intelligence (Mossad/Shin Bet) agents and military officers.

ICTS were responsible for security at the 9/11 airports. 19 hijackers, 1 day and no arrests. They were also responsible for security in Paris that allowed Richard Reid to pass through with his shoe-bomb.

While I am ignorant of the details I am less so of history - That is actual history; not the history we are supposed to believe. It is one of the benefits of not being a victim of social conditioning which attempts to shackle our ability to think through fear of the label "conspiracy theorist".

A potentially crucial piece in this jigsaw is Al Qaeda's "bojinka" and TWA Flight 800. Wikipedia and officialdom will tell you it was an accident. Any real investigation of the facts will tell you otherwise and it was in fact a succesful terrorist attack planned by Ramzi Youssef (KSM's nephew and one of the planner of the WTC bombing). I can justify this on request.

Bojinka involved bring down a civilian airliner mid-air by smuggling on a small amount of strategically placed explosives to detonate the fuel tank turning the plane itself into a giant bomb.

Philippine Airline Flight 434 was Ramzy Youseff's test run. It was successful in every regard aside from the placement of the explosives, and the plane was able to land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434

Two main points lead me towards having Al Qaeda as a suspect:

1) The date(s). Both TWA 800 and Malaysian Airlines both came down on July 17th. Symbolic attacks are part of the Al Qaeda modus operandi as we've seen with the Sept. 11 Benghazi assault on the embassy.

2) To initiate a proxy war and the drain on resources between Al Qaeda's two strongest enemies (and sometimes best friends), the Russians and the West would be a radical jihadi's wet dream.

Beano

So you are saying that it was Al Quaeda that was responsible, but that they were aided by Shin Bet?

Are you also saying that it was a bomb that brought it down not a missile? Surely even the most cursory examination of the wreckage would show whether this was true.

So what of the ukranian/russian/pro-russian separatist missile launcher? What did they fire at and hit? Or that part not happen?

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

So you are saying that it was Al Quaeda that was responsible, but that they were aided by Shin Bet?

Are you also saying that it was a bomb that brought it down not a missile? Surely even the most cursory examination of the wreckage would show whether this was true.

So what of the ukranian/russian/pro-russian separatist missile launcher? What did they fire at and hit? Or that part not happen?

Give me strength.

I am not saying this is the most probable explanation

Beano

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Give me strength.

No need for aggression.

Sacksian

I'd agree that this is not the most probable explanation (probably one of the least possible ones).

However, if you're starting with the belief that Israel are responsible but haven't been following the story in any great detail and are largely ignorant of the facts, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

Brown Bomber

Sacksian wrote: »

I'd agree that this is not the most probable explanation (probably one of the least possible ones).

However, if you're starting with the belief that Israel are responsible but haven't been following the story in any great detail and are largely ignorant of the facts, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

Once again I'd direct you to the actual text you supposedly have read:

If it wasn't a tragic accident carried out by ill-trained anti-coup civilian militias and involves subterfuge then the most likely (in my opinion) perpetrators would be the state of Israel and their fanatically anti-Russian Zionist Neocon allies in Washington.

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

No need for aggression.

True, though you misunderstand my intentions.

The purpose of this thread is not to be a dick swinging contest but an effort to think outside the box and to exercise our imaginations for the purpose of hopefully interesting conversation coloured in by me sharing my knowledge of possible precedents and alternative motives. I'd be amazed if 1 in 10,000 boards users knew about bojinka and TWA 800.

Beano

Brown Bomber wrote: »

True, though you misunderstand my intentions.

The purpose of this thread is not to be a dick swinging contest but an effort to think outside the box and to exercise our imaginations for the purpose of hopefully interesting conversation coloured in by me sharing my knowledge of possible precedents and alternative motives.

I'm not sure what your intentions are. i can only go on what you post.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'd be amazed if 1 in 10,000 boards users knew about bojinka and TWA 800.

That's because there is no link. TWA 800 was not blown up by a bomb

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

I'm not sure what your intentions are. i can only go on what you post.

Then please do. You wrongly assumed aggression when my only emotion was despair at your response.

Beano wrote: »

That's because there is no link. TWA 800 was not blown up by a bomb

Could you explain how/why you are so certain please?

Sacksian

Brown Bomber wrote: »

True, though you misunderstand my intentions.

The purpose of this thread is not to be a dick swinging contest but an effort to think outside the box and to exercise our imaginations for the purpose of hopefully interesting conversation coloured in by me sharing my knowledge of possible precedents and alternative motives. I'd be amazed if 1 in 10,000 boards users knew about bojinka and TWA 800.

I don't mean any offence but, given your post history, it doesn't seem particularly imaginative to posit a theory which has Israel as the most likely perpetrator of a shadowy plot. In fact, it's probably the least imaginative theory you could conceive. Surely, you should be trying to challenge your standard way of thinking?? Or have I misunderstood what it means to think "outside the box"?

Brown Bomber

Sacksian wrote: »

I don't mean any offence but, given your post history, it doesn't seem particularly imaginative to posit a theory which has Israel as the most likely perpetrator of a shadowy plot. In fact, it's probably the least imaginative theory you could conceive. Surely, you should be trying to challenge your standard way of thinking?? Or have I misunderstood what it means to think "outside the box"?

Probably.

If you can think of a single group that benefited more from the distraction caused by this plane than the Israeli state whose army were apparently killing Palestinians young and old indiscriminately then share it.

I'd just add that there is form here for Israel to carry out their murderous campaigns while the eyes of the world is looking the other way, Castlead being carried out during the hysteria surrounding the inaguration of President Hope and Change.

If I was a sociopath I would respect the Machivelian nature of this possible strategic sleight of hand. The only obstacle to Israel killing until ever last Palestinian is dead is international pressure. They had committed to a campaign of murder against a defenseless people. Most normal people would be repulsed by this, though perhaps not if when they turn on the evening news it is dominated by the fate of this plane and it's passengers.

Beano

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Then please do. You wrongly assumed aggression when my only emotion was despair at your response.


Could you explain how/why you are so certain please?

I could but i wont. You wouldnt listen.

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

I could but i wont. You wouldnt listen.

I promise you I will. I do already know you are wrong however. The most likely cause of the crash TWA 800 was terrorism. All the evidence leads in this direction.

Beano

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I promise you I will. I do already know you are wrong however. The most likely cause of the crash TWA 800 was terrorism. All the evidence leads in this direction.

eh, no.

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

eh, no.

"eh, no" what???

Beano

Brown Bomber wrote: »

"eh, no" what???

eh, no, you're totally wrong.

Sacksian

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Probably.

If you can think of a single group that benefited more from the distraction caused by this plane...then share it.

Well, if it was intended as a distraction, it's the worst distraction in history - having not distracted at all from coverage of Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It also backfired spectacularly because there are loads of people who either don't like Israel, or just generally don't like Jews, that think Israel was behind the crash - the type who are always discussing similar Israeli/Zionist/Jewish conspiracy theories.

So, there doesn't seem to be much imagination or thinking outside the box going on with your theory?? Don't see how Israel benefited from the crash.

But what if it's not a distraction??? What if the people behind it wanted Israel to be blamed?? It's a classic format. Given that Israel are being blamed by various online cohorts, what you need to ask yourself is who benefits from Israel being blamed for the crash????

Could it be that it was perpetrated by rabid anti-semites who gambled on the possibility that people would blame Israel for it??? Obviously, this is very risky because it relies on credible groups other than the usual suspects (e.g. stormfront, etc) thinking Israel was behind it. Maybe they got their supporters to foment this type of discussion online??

It would definitely be in their interests to suggest Israel was behind it.

Brown Bomber

Sacksian wrote: »

Well, if it was intended as a distraction, it's the worst distraction in history - having not distracted at all from coverage of Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It also backfired spectacularly because there are loads of people who either don't like Israel, or just generally don't like Jews, that think Israel was behind the crash - the type who are always discussing similar Israeli/Zionist/Jewish conspiracy theories.

So, there doesn't seem to be much imagination or thinking outside the box going on with your theory?? Don't see how Israel benefited from the crash.

But what if it's not a distraction??? What if the people behind it wanted Israel to be blamed?? It's a classic format. Given that Israel are being blamed by various online cohorts, what you need to ask yourself is who benefits from Israel being blamed for the crash????

Could it be that it was perpetrated by rabid anti-semites who gambled on the possibility that people would blame Israel for it??? Obviously, this is very risky because it relies on credible groups other than the usual suspects (e.g. stormfront, etc) thinking Israel was behind it. Maybe they got their supporters to foment this type of discussion online??

It would definitely be in their interests to suggest Israel was behind it.

Could you just answer the question please? The motive - no more no less - is strong. It being that such a tragic event would distract from Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses against a defenseless people which had just begun and otherwise would be lead news story across the world.

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

eh, no, you're totally wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time. However, I am supremely confident that isn't the case now. I will freely accept I am if you can produce the evidence you have apparently seen. Will you do this please?

Beano

I have taken the advice of a mod and added you to my ignore list Brown Bomber so i wont be replying further

Brown Bomber

Beano wrote: »

I have taken the advice of a mod and added you to my ignore list Brown Bomber so i wont be replying further

Shame. I was looking forward to debunking your points, but as you wish. No hard feelings

Sacksian

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Could you just answer the question please? The motive - no more no less - is strong.

I think the motive is stronger in my alternative theory.

Brown Bomber

Sacksian wrote: »

I think the motive is stronger in my alternative theory.

Nah, that could only work if Israel wasn't simultaneously bombing children playing on a beach and centres for the disabled. Or in other words nobody does a better job of making Israel look bad than Israel itself.

Ballymun Bohs

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Could you just answer the question please? The motive - no more no less - is strong. It being that such a tragic event would distract from Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses against a defenseless people which had just begun and otherwise would be lead news story across the world.

The eyes of the world are on Gaza now and still Israel continues unabated with it's bombardment because they know that despite widespread condemnation that no one is gonna do anything about it. So if they would continue doing it under these circumstances AFTER the MH17 story is dying down, then why go to the trouble of creating a distraction in the first place if you're gonna bomb Gaza regardless of whether the eyes of the world are on them or not?

It would be more likely (IMO) that Israel would carry out false flag events within Israel in order to justify the slaughter in Gaza.

Brown Bomber

Ballymun Bohs wrote: »

The eyes of the world are on Gaza now and still Israel continues unabated with it's bombardment because they know that despite widespread condemnation that no one is gonna do anything about it. So if they would continue doing it under these circumstances AFTER the MH17 story is dying down, then why go to the trouble of creating a distraction in the first place if you're gonna bomb Gaza regardless of whether the eyes of the world are on them or not?

Because the initial onslaught is the tip of the spear. Blowing up a plane at precisely the same time blunts this tip.


I disagree that Israel doesn't care about what anyone thinks. They care passionately what the average US citizen thinks, it is their tax dollars that pay for the Iron Dome, the F16s and snipers bullets which are currently killing Palestinian innocents. If there is a mass movement to pull this rug from under the them then the Zionist colonial project is doomed. This is why they spend a billion dollars a year propaganidising the American public.

Ballymun Bohs wrote: »

It would be more likely (IMO) that Israel would carry out false flag events within Israel in order to justify the slaughter in Gaza.

I agree. However, in this case of the murdered settlers it appears they just had to bide their time and wait for the opportunity and cynically manipulate the situation through provocations and the control of information.

LiveIsLife

I think this is just another attempt to drag Israel into a conspiracy in anyway possible. I'd argue that this hasn't benefited Israel at all, its done the opposite. Any distraction caused just hurts Israels image, because people don't see the reasons why Israel launched the attack or the buildup to the conflict. When the worlds attention comes back back on Gaza Israel is in full military mode where it has an obvious advantage and looks like the obvious aggressor. Now I don't agree with what Israel is doing but the media here only report one side of the story, which is anti-Israel. Stuff like this is rarely reported,

ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033?pfrom=home-lateststories
youtube.com/watch?v=EaqWqjb4w6s

which show Hamas firing rockets from civilian areas or near journalists in the hope that Israel will strike back and kill foreign journalists or civilians, thus damaging their reputation in the eyes of the world. There also seems to be a misconception that Hamas rockets are little handheld things when infact they are sophisticated, powerful weapons. An initial ceasefire before the real fighting began was also brokered by Egypt which Israel accepted and Hamas refused.

I feel for the ordinary people of Gaza, but Hamas are just as bad if not worse than Israel in all of this and its something that the media here don't give a balanced image of.

Then you have the disproportionate coverage of the Gaza situation, when the rest of the region is in turmoil, particularly Syria where many more people have been killed and displaced. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Libya get the odd bit of coverage while Gaza is headline news every night, although there's been a bit more coverage of Iraq recently. You get people out marching in the streets calling for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled, yet where were they to be seen when Russia invaded the Ukraine? Why aren't the calling for the government to do something about the trouble in the rest of the middle east or Africa that are in turmoil?

From what I can see Israel gets a disproportionate amount of negative publicity compared to its neighbours who's actions are just as bad. What needs to be done is a proper UN set up with where troops can go into areas like Palestine and enforce the peace.

Elmer Blooker

Not one but two Malaysian airliners downed - coincidental I'm sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission

In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Beano

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Not one but two Malaysian airliners downed - coincidental I'm sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission

another bunch of crackpots who think they can setup their own court

Elmer Blooker

Beano wrote: »

another bunch of crackpots who think they can setup their own court

you're probably right, these "crackpots" don't support the murder of women and children so they must be a bunch of loonies!

GerardKeating

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Nah, that could only work if Israel wasn't simultaneously bombing children playing on a beach and centres for the disabled. Or in other words nobody does a better job of making Israel look bad than Israel itself.

Perhaps the OP has it the wrong way around, the Gaza conflict has largely overshadowed the MH17 incident, perhaps the assault on Gaza and the excesses and war crimes committed were intended to drive MH17 from media, so that people would not realise that this was the real target.

DamagedTrax

GerardKeating wrote: »

Perhaps the OP has it the wrong way around, the Gaza conflict has largely overshadowed the MH17 incident, perhaps the assault on Gaza and the excesses and war crimes committed were intended to drive MH17 from media, so that people would not realise that this was the real target.

very possible

wasnt it about 20 mins after?

you can imagine the call.. "quick, get the israelis on the case. its all gone tits up in ukraine"

GerardKeating

DamagedTrax wrote: »

very possible

wasnt it about 20 mins after?

you can imagine the call.. "quick, get the israelis on the case. its all gone tits up in ukraine"

Or this was all planing in advance, and (knowing the flight would be shot down on July 17th), the IDF started to lay the ground work weeks in advance.

After all, most passengers on the flight would have booked weeks/months in advance.

Brown Bomber

Ballymun Bohs wrote: »

AFTER the MH17 story is dying down, then why go to the trouble of creating a distraction in the first place if you're gonna bomb Gaza regardless of whether the eyes of the world are on them or not?

Uh-huh, but the spotlight is taken away from them, at least initially.

Ballymun Bohs wrote: »

It would be more likely (IMO) that Israel would carry out false flag events within Israel in order to justify the slaughter in Gaza.

This is feasible.


I wouldn't rule out the Israelis or agents of the Israelis killing the 3 settlers.

Brown Bomber

LiveIsLife wrote: »

I think this is just another attempt to drag Israel into a conspiracy in anyway possible.

You'll find that this thread fingers Al Qaeda as the culprits. Unfortunately, there is a lot of sympathy for the devil and people feel compelled to defend Israel's indiscriminate butchery of non-Jews.

LiveIsLife wrote: »

I'd argue that this hasn't benefited Israel at all, its done the opposite. Any distraction caused just hurts Israels image, because people don't see the reasons why Israel launched the attack or the buildup to the conflict.

Every "buildup to the conflict" begins with the occupation - A War crime. Besides, I've already detailed the immediate buildup.

LiveIsLife wrote: »

When the worlds attention comes back back on Gaza Israel is in full military mode where it has an obvious advantage and looks like the obvious aggressor.

F16s vs children - It is the obvious aggressor.

LiveIsLife wrote: »

Now I don't agree with what Israel is doing but the media here only report one side of the story, which is anti-Israel. Stuff like this is rarely reported,

Stuff like that is constantly reported, especially in the American press.

LiveIsLife wrote: »

which show Hamas firing rockets from civilian areas or near journalists in the hope that Israel will strike back and kill foreign journalists or civilians, thus damaging their reputation in the eyes of the world. There also seems to be a misconception that Hamas rockets are little handheld things when infact they are sophisticated, powerful weapons. An initial ceasefire before the real fighting began was also brokered by Egypt which Israel accepted and Hamas refused.

I feel for the ordinary people of Gaza, but Hamas are just as bad if not worse than Israel in all of this and its something that the media here don't give a balanced image of.

Then you have the disproportionate coverage of the Gaza situation, when the rest of the region is in turmoil, particularly Syria where many more people have been killed and displaced. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Libya get the odd bit of coverage while Gaza is headline news every night, although there's been a bit more coverage of Iraq recently. You get people out marching in the streets calling for the Israeli ambassador to be expelled, yet where were they to be seen when Russia invaded the Ukraine? Why aren't the calling for the government to do something about the trouble in the rest of the middle east or Africa that are in turmoil?

From what I can see Israel gets a disproportionate amount of negative publicity compared to its neighbours who's actions are just as bad. What needs to be done is a proper UN set up with where troops can go into areas like Palestine and enforce the peace.

Hamas weren't involved in the ceasefire negotiations. They have, on the other hand offered a 10 year truce - strange we didn't hear about it so much on this same biased media.

Safehands

Its great to read all the theories about how air crashes happened. TWA 800 most likely came down due to a wiring fault in an empty fuel tank. The Malaysia flight was shot down by mistake. If you want a conspiracy about a crash then look at the Helios Flight 522. Supposed to have run out of fuel while flying out of control with everyone dead on board. F16's up beside it. It crashed on a remote hillside in a huge fireball that set the mountain on fire. No fuel on board, I don't think so! I believe the F16's shot it down, which would have been the correct thing to do.