New Landlord Problem

tuff1

Myself and the girlfriend have been living in a house for the past 5 months that has been up for sale. We had been told by the letting agent that they were selling it on a buy to let basis, but the house has just been sold to someone who wants to move in. They are claiming that they are entitled to do this as a landlord is allowed to move back into their own premises.

Are they entitled to do this, even though we are only 5 months into a 12 month fixed term lease? (We have been good tenants, paying rent on time, no anti-social behaviour etc etc)

Many thanks in advance!

godtabh

I dont think they are allowed under a fixed term lease

TimeToShine

I'm afraid he is entitled to do that once he gives you the 28 days notice provided it's for himself or an immediate family member. Sorry.

The_Morrigan

You are entitled to stay in the property for the duration of the fixed term lease, the section 34 clause which allows owners to move back into their properties is applicable to a Part IV tenancy (which technically starts at the 6 months mark).
To be honest, I would think they are giving you a heads up that the lease will not be renewed. I don't know if they have given you a timeline for the closing of the sale & the move in date of the new owners. You could use this to your advantage though - get them to buy you out of the fixed term lease if they want you to leave it early.

The_Morrigan

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm afraid he is entitled to do that once he gives you the 28 days notice provided it's for himself or an immediate family member. Sorry.

No he isn't entitled to do that.

Eldarion

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm afraid he is entitled to do that once he gives you the 28 days notice provided it's for himself or a relative. Sorry.

Wrong. This only applies under Part 4. If there is a Fixed Term lease in place and the tenant hasn't breached it, then the new owner is obliged to honor it to completion.

TimeToShine

The_Morrigan wrote: »

No he isn't entitled to do that.

Is he not? I was just basing it on this, considering it's a tenancy under 6 months. Apologies if I'm wrong.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

During the first 6 months of a tenancy, the landlord can ask you to leave without giving a reason but must serve a valid written notice of termination, allowing a minimum 28-day notice period.
If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member, you must be given the following information in writing, along with the notice of termination:

• The name of the person
• Their relationship to the landlord and
• How long they will occupy the dwelling

edit: I stand corrected, the more you know.

The_Morrigan

TimeToShine wrote: »

Is he not? I was just basing it on this, considering it's a tenancy under 6 months. Apologies if I'm wrong.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

During the first 6 months of a tenancy, the landlord can ask you to leave without giving a reason but must serve a valid written notice of termination, allowing a minimum 28-day notice period.
If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member, you must be given the following information in writing, along with the notice of termination:

• The name of the person
• Their relationship to the landlord and
• How long they will occupy the dwelling

That's a part iv tenancy, not a fixed term one.

tuff1

That's brilliant, thanks everyone for all the quick replies!

Saz88

Hello and thanks so far everyone...

The current landlord has sold the house to a new person (not a relative or anything) and this new buyer wants to move into the house herself. We think, by law, that if we are renting a house and if our current landlord wants to move in, we have to move and allow them to move into the house. We do not know if this transfers to the new landlord though. We have a fixed 12 month contract and there is no clause in the contract about the sale of the house.

We have been given 2 months to move out.. They said the sale would be complete in 4 weeks but that they were giving us extra time.

The auctioneer also mentioned that the landlord has health issues and that is why the house is being sold but I don't know if that would come into it..

Thanks!

The_Morrigan

Saz88 wrote: »

Hello and thanks so far everyone...

The current landlord has sold the house to a new person (not a relative or anything) and this new buyer wants to move into the house herself. We think, by law, that if we are renting a house and if our current landlord wants to move in, we have to move and allow them to move into the house. We do not know if this transfers to the new landlord though. We have a fixed 12 month contract and there is no clause in the contract about the sale of the house.

We have been given 2 months to move out.. They said the sale would be complete in 4 weeks but that they were giving us extra time.

The auctioneer also mentioned that the landlord has health issues and that is why the house is being sold but I don't know if that would come into it..

Thanks!

That is not true, the existing landlord can only invoke Section 34 of the RTA in a Part IV tenancy, it does not apply to a fixed term lease.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

The landlords health issues have nothing to do with your lease - tell the auctioneer to read up on his tenancy law before he ends up in front of the PRTB for an illegal eviction.

Eldarion

Saz88 wrote: »

Hello and thanks so far everyone...

The current landlord has sold the house to a new person (not a relative or anything) and this new buyer wants to move into the house herself. We think, by law, that if we are renting a house and if our current landlord wants to move in, we have to move and allow them to move into the house. We do not know if this transfers to the new landlord though. We have a fixed 12 month contract and there is no clause in the contract about the sale of the house.

We have been given 2 months to move out.. They said the sale would be complete in 4 weeks but that they were giving us extra time.

The auctioneer also mentioned that the landlord has health issues and that is why the house is being sold but I don't know if that would come into it..

Thanks!

This is sounding quite strange. It would be interesting to know if the contracts pertaining to the property sale entails 'vacant possession'.

Normally sales are fairly explicit on this point and banks absolutely insist on it prior to drawdowns of mortgages.

The change in landlords should have no bearing on your rights as a tenant in this situation. Unless you have broken your lease, you have rights over the property for the time period outlined. Unless there are break clauses specified and agreed to in said lease.

Saz88

Fantastic, thank you so much! I quoted bits and pieces of law that I knew to the auctioneer and he kept telling me I was wrong so I am very happy now..

We have been very accommodating with viewings etc etc for the last five months so we were looking forward to just living in the house in peace so this has all been a mess!!

I don't believe the house is even registered with the PRTB so it doesn't look like it will bode well for them!

Thanks again!!

The_Morrigan

Saz88 wrote: »

Fantastic, thank you so much! I quoted bits and pieces of law that I knew to the auctioneer and he kept telling me I was wrong so I am very happy now..

We have been very accommodating with viewings etc etc for the last five months so we were looking forward to just living in the house in peace so this has all been a mess!!

I don't believe the house is even registered with the PRTB so it doesn't look like it will bode well!

Thanks again!!

Get onto the PRTB & Threshold for advice - they may be able to intervene on your behalf. Contact the PSRA (http://www.psr.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/index-en) if the auctioneer continues to be a plank.

Saz88

Great! I have contacted threshold (albeit after a 10 minute wait on the phone!) as you advised and they outlined the next steps to take (reject the written notice of eviction when we receive it and contacting PRTB etc) so that is brilliant.. I will contact PSRA if it comes to it, it is nice to know who to contact in the event anyway..!

Thanks so much everyone! (*Sigh of relief* )

The_Conductor

I'd just add to this- the purchaser may be unable to close the deal- unless they have vacant possession of the property. No lender will lend to a potential purchaser if there is a sitting tenant. This could get very messy.

athtrasna

And don't forget the original landlord has your deposit!

Marcusm

Realistically, this is a situation where you decide what notice period and compensation you want and put this forward to the letting agent. i would suggest a month's notice and 4-6 months rent rebate as compensation. Any sensible landlord or estate agent should have worked this out when they managed to convince you to permit viewings. If they have a buyer signed up they will not want to lose out by avoiding compensation.

drumswan

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd just add to this- the purchaser may be unable to close the deal- unless they have vacant possession of the property. No lender will lend to a potential purchaser if there is a sitting tenant. This could get very messy.

Could be a cash sale though.

Grandpa Hassan

Given that it seems like you'll be out in 7 months, no matter what, do you really want to stay? I'd it were me, I'd be starting to look for another place now before I get any more settled.

Mrs OBumble

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Given that it seems like you'll be out in 7 months, no matter what, do you really want to stay? I'd it were me, I'd be starting to look for another place now before I get any more settled.

This + about 1 million.

Yes, the law says that you can stay for another 7 months, not just another 2. That's very sweet of it - but karma is a bitch, and works based on what's right, not what's legal.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the house you moved into was put up for sale. But it's one of the risks of renting, and it counterbalanced by the fact that if a crowd of undesirables move in next door, you can just move out. Swings and roundabouts.

Personally I wouldn't even be looking for so much compensation.

Instead, I'd be looking for the right to move out at short notice at any time within the next two months and only being required to pay rent on the place for the time I was actually there. This would totally avoid you paying double rent anywhere.

Maybe I would be looking for my actual out-of-pocket moving costs to, (ie hire of truck / movers for personal effects, plus cost of a mail re-directin and early disconnection fees for any utilities that require it).

Thomas D

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This + about 1 million.

Yes, the law says that you can stay for another 7 months, not just another 2. That's very sweet of it - but karma is a bitch, and works based on what's right, not what's legal.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the house you moved into was put up for sale. But it's one of the risks of renting, and it counterbalanced by the fact that if a crowd of undesirables move in next door, you can just move out. Swings and roundabouts.

Personally I wouldn't even be looking for so much compensation.

Instead, I'd be looking for the right to move out at short notice at any time within the next two months and only being required to pay rent on the place for the time I was actually there. This would totally avoid you paying double rent anywhere.

Maybe I would be looking for my actual out-of-pocket moving costs to, (ie hire of truck / movers for personal effects, plus cost of a mail re-directin and early disconnection fees for any utilities that require it).

Karma doesn't exist.

Stay the 12 months and give the landlord an education in law.

El_Dangeroso

I think you should move out, a bad landlord can make your life uncomfortable.

Instead I would be looking for 2 months rent for the inconvenience. (presuming utilities are unaffected by the move)

Arbiter of Good Taste

Yeah, stay the duration of the lease, but don't expect to receive a good reference when you go looking for your next place.

TheDriver

The owner should have known that signing you up for the year was going to be an issue. Don't forget to include utilities e.g. Paying sky for the year if u move out in the money agreement.

the_syco

If anything gets broken, expect long delays if anything breaks, and eviction notice if you take cost of the repair (of whatever broke) out of the rent.

In short, if they don't want you there, they can be very immature to get you out legally. Get out this month, and you can get a house before the yearly student rush (if you live anywhere near a college), as otherwise you may find it tough to get a nice place in the next few months.

tuff1

Thanks for the replies everyone.

To be honest the attitude of the landlord and estate agent leaves a lot to be desired, over the past few days we've been threatened with court action, we've been told that people will come to the door shouting and roaring at us, claiming my signature on the lease is a forgery, the list goes on and on.

We said that we'll keep our options open, and we'd consider a move if we found a place as nice as the one we were currently in, which I think is very fair given the circumstances. Unfortunately there's not many places around that suit us, and as mentioned above the students will be coming back in the next couple of weeks so the job will only get more difficult!

wirehairmax

Its not your house, the house is sold, the new owner wants it, you've been given reasonable time to find somewhere else, why are you being such a pain in the ass?
You rent, therefore this is the life you choose. If for whatever reason the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a landlord seven months rent if you were moving out suddenly?
If you want security and long term accomadation, go get a mortgage, buy a house and you can stay there the rest of your days.

The_Morrigan

wirehairmax wrote: »

Its not your house, the house is sold, the new owner wants it, you've been given reasonable time to find somewhere else, why are you being such a pain in the ass?
You rent, therefore this is the life you choose. If for whatever reason the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a landlord seven months rent if you were moving out suddenly?
If you want security and long term accomadation, go get a mortgage, buy a house and you can stay there the rest of your days.

The new owner and the estate agent have ignored the law - the OP is not being a pain in the ass, they are exerting their rights to peaceful enjoyment of their home.
'Reasonable time' doesn't come into property law, there are defined notice periods stipulated in legislation, they are the minimum notices that can be given to a tenant or a landlord. In the case of a fixed term lease it cannot be broken with notice unless there is a break clause contained in the lease or the tenant breaches their obligations.

TheBandicoot

wirehairmax wrote: »

Its not your house.

It is their home.

, the house is sold, the new owner wants it,

New owner/their solicitor should have known there was a siting tenant and what the legal situation there is.

you've been given reasonable time to find somewhere else, why are you being such a pain in the ass?

Because they don't want to get turfed out of their home illegaly?

You rent, therefore this is the life you choose. If for whatever reason the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a landlord seven months rent if you were moving out suddenly?
If you want security and long term accomadation, go get a mortgage, buy a house and you can stay there the rest of your days

This is the attitude that makes the rental market in Ireland a complete joke and causes so many issues and hardship for people. Though I suppose you are a builder so there is no surprise that is your attitude.

If the shoe was on the other foot, the landlord would be 100% entitled to chase the tenant for the unpaid rent. And even then, it is not a fair comparison- if the tenant leaves early, in the current market the landlord loses maybe a week of revenue, gets a new tenant, job done; in this scenario the tenant is being removed from their home and will have to struggle to find somewhere else, move personal belongings, change utilities, etc etc. Obviously neither party should be breaking fixed term leases in the first place.

tuff1

wirehairmax wrote: »

Its not your house, the house is sold, the new owner wants it, you've been given reasonable time to find somewhere else, why are you being such a pain in the ass?
You rent, therefore this is the life you choose. If for whatever reason the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a landlord seven months rent if you were moving out suddenly?
If you want security and long term accomadation, go get a mortgage, buy a house and you can stay there the rest of your days.

What's with the attitude? Do you think it's unreasonable to suggest we'll forfeit our lease on the condition that we find accomodation that's a similar standard to the one we're in?

Eldarion

TheBandicoot wrote: »

This is the attitude that makes the rental market in Ireland a complete joke and causes so many issues and hardship for people. Though I suppose you are a builder so there is no surprise that is your attitude.

I nearly took a bite myself but was half way through typing out a response when I figured he might be trolling.

I really do wonder how commonplace that mentality is in this country, though. The wording is downright scary...

You rent, therefore this is the life you choose.

:eek:

The_Conductor

The_Morrigan wrote: »

The new owner and the estate agent have ignored the law - the OP is not being a pain in the ass, they are exerting their rights to peaceful enjoyment of their home.
'Reasonable time' doesn't come into property law, there are defined notice periods stipulated in legislation, they are the minimum notices that can be given to a tenant or a landlord. In the case of a fixed term lease it cannot be broken with notice unless there is a break clause contained in the lease or the tenant breaches their obligations.

Just out of curiosity- where does the tenant stand with respect of the contract? Surely the contract is between them and the previous owner- and the breach of the contract thus a civil matter between the tenant and the previous owner?

One way or the other- the tenant has a contract which copperfastens entitlements for them.

The most reasonable course of action in my opinion would be for the seller to offer to buy out the tenancy (perhaps in lieu for a month's rent?) from the tenant.

If the landlord was selling the property- what the hell were they doing giving the tenant a 1 year lease- they seriously screwed up.........

Eldarion

The_Conductor wrote: »

Just out of curiosity- where does the tenant stand with respect of the contract? Surely the contract is between them and the previous owner- and the breach of the contract thus a civil matter between the tenant and the previous owner?

One way or the other- the tenant has a contract which copperfastens entitlements for them.

The most reasonable course of action in my opinion would be for the seller to offer to buy out the tenancy (perhaps in lieu for a month's rent?) from the tenant.

If the landlord was selling the property- what the hell were they doing giving the tenant a 1 year lease- they seriously screwed up.........

Gonna qualify with an IANAL but it really does not matter that the ownership has changed in hands with regards to the tenant. The tenant has a lease which gives them rights over the property for the time period specified. Regardless that the lease was signed with the previous owner, in any property sale existing leases must always be honored to completion. Basic real estate contract law in effect.

The question comes down to whether or not there's a break clause in the lease or the new owner has a valid argument that the lease has been breached which will allow them to terminate the tenancy.

cpoh1

There is no way this house has been sold yet. Both solicitors wont allow parties to exchange contracts with an open issue like this unresolved. And if the solicitor doesnt know yet they will eventually find out either with the landlord coming clean or the estate agent letting them know.

I would imagine the threats are the landlord starting to panic as he tries to get the sale closed and nothing more.

OP stick to your guns and leave on your terms, in the long run you are better off out and it is the decent thing to do but make sure you find the right place for yourself first.

Thomas D

Stick around and you might be illegally evicted which is worth a fair wedge.

Ignore the bend over and take it crowd here. So many of them seem desperate to do a landlord a favour which would be considered bizarre in any other business setting.

I'd settle for a lease buyout of the full remaining term, nothing less.

The_Morrigan

Thomas D wrote: »

Stick around and you might be illegally evicted which is worth a fair wedge.

Ignore the bend over and take it crowd here. So many of them seem desperate to do a landlord a favour which would be considered bizarre in any other business setting.

I'd settle for a lease buyout of the full remaining term, nothing less.

When does one or two posters constitute a crowd? The majority of posters here have noted that you can only break a fixed term lease in certain circumstances & the OP has been given some ideas on ways of leaving early if they wish.

Mod bit/
You've been warned before about your anti-landlord posts, making up an agenda in a thread that doesn't have one is a bit much.