Card Charged: Difficult customer or discreditable service?

cormie

I wanted to order some of these pop up traffic cones from Boyztoys.com : http://boyztoys.com/products/ry650_pop-up_traffic_cone.php

It won't show the price, but if you go to the "quick order" tab like I did, put in RY650 as the product code and check the price, it comes up as £5.25 per unit and says "add another" 44.74 for free delivery. I had a quick look around the site to see what else they sold and noticed somewhere it said orders of over £150 to Ireland will get free shipping. I'm buying them for a business which is VAT registered in Ireland so I decided to register an account and added my VAT number and put an order in for 10, which came to £52.50, with no VAT and I then saw shipping was still free for me even with the Irish address. I paid for the order and that was that.

After I had placed the order I returned to the product page and it was different since I registered and now showed the prices and from what I gathered, had I ordered 2 more, I could have just ordered a carton of 12 instead and it would have been £3.85 per unit, so it would have actually been cheaper to buy 12, than 10 at a total of £46.20 as far as I could see, I could have just added one more individual one to the basket then for and got 13 for £50.05 and qualified for the free delivery. Anyway, I had already placed the order and wasn't pushed cancelling as I saw the charge was already "held" on my card.

As I'm guessing this company usually deals with much larger purchases, resellers etc, I seem to have been assigned an account manager and since placing the order got this email:

Dear *

Thank you for registering with Boyztoys.

My name is Wendy and I am an Account Manager.

I have tried to contact you but appreciate you are busy.

Just to let you know all orders over £50 are carriage free, however there is no minimum order.

If you need any help or information please let me know.

Many thanks

So I'm guessing it was just a courtesy call, which I missed as I was on the ferry travelling on a job to the UK. In the time between placing the order on the 26th and having a chance to reply to the courtesy email above, my account had since been debited of the held amount.

The conversation then went like this :pac:

From me:

Hi Wendy,
Thanks for that. It says on the website orders over £150 to Ireland are free so I was pleasantly surprised when I saw my order over £50 was carriage free to Ireland too

From them:

I must apologise on receiving your e-mail I can see that I have typed incorrectly, as you say Shipping to ireland is free on orders of £150 or more.

I have looked at your order and it has not been processed as shipping charges have not been included. Could you please advise if you wish to pay the balance or cancel the order.

Kind regards

Wendy

From me:

Hi Wendy,
This amount has already been debited from my bank account so please leave as is. You're not going to cancel the order on me after me questioning the carriage when you wouldn't have noticed had I not said anything I hope

From them:

The order was not processed yesterday due to the shipping charges not being added to the order.

We are unable to process the order without the correct payment, please advise if you wish to pay the balance alternatively we can refund the amount you have already paid.

Kind Regards

Wendy

From me:

Hi Wendy,
The amount has been taken from my account, these funds are no longer available to me. I believe that once the card has been charged, that the contract has been made and from a legal standpoint, you're obliged to ship the order. I noticed after purchasing, that had I bought a carton of 12, instead of the 10 I did buy, that they would have been £3.85 per unit, or £46.20 for 12 if I understand correctly? So maybe you can just ship a carton for the £52.50 I paid and we'll leave it at that?

From them:

I am happy to send the order once the shipping charge has been paid.

If you would like a refund instead please let me know.

If we do not have the shipping charge paid by noon today I will refund the amount you have paid to you.

From me:

As you're an online retailer, I'd suggest you look into the legal implications of doing as you suggest. From what I know, the contract is made once the card is charged, and it may not be correct which is why I'd suggest looking into it (I'm not fussed as I don't deal with online sales) but you can't just issue a refund. If the card has been charged for goods then as far as I know, they should be shipped as the terms in the invoice and payment process suggest.

How much is shipping to Ireland anyway? I had a quick look at the shopping cart and it suggested £40? I definitely won't be paying that

You can ship a carton of 12 for £46.20 +1 individual piece to bring the total to £50.05 to qualify for the free carriage over £50, to my UK address and refund £2.45 to me. I don't know how it happened that I was able to put an order through and pay for it and have the amount taken from my account only for you to come back and say you're not shipping it because carriage hasn't been paid and then giving me a time limit to pay it, but it's not a very good start.

The UK address to ship to is:

*************** Parcel Motel
1A McKinney Road
NEWTOWNABBEY, Co Antrim BT36 4PE
United Kingdom

Please let me know if you need anything else.

From them:

I have spoken to our Finance department and can confirm there are no legal implications involved in providing you with a refund through Sagepay.

As advised on our website the shipping is £40 to Ireland.

If we have not received the shipping costs by noon today i will authorise a refund.

These are the only options I am able to offer.

Kind regards

Wendy

From me @11:22:

Hi Wendy,
Can you not ship it to my UK address and if so, why not? You have my full billing address and Irish VAT number and you just need to send it to the UK address I've provided so this will qualify for the free carriage over £50 as outlined below and that should be that?

The next reply I got was at 13:26:

Order cancelled and refund done:

Kind regards

Wendy

:eek:

Is it just me, or is that appalling service? I still haven't a clue why they had no interest in my suggestion to ship to parcel motel instead, even though I would have had to pay the parcel motel fee etc it seemed a perfectly plausible, reasonable solution from my end and wasn't requesting anything that they don't seem to already offer. I've read many times on boards that if the card is charged, that the order should be honoured but I don't know if that's right but considering there was a glitch their end, the effort to resolve it and come up with a solution is non existent.

Beano

are you sure that the money was actually taken from your account or did they just put a hold on the funds?

cormie

Yep, it was definitely taken.

With AIB online banking, there is a "pending transactions" section where you can see money "held", any time I use my card, the transactions show up here immediately and the "available funds" of the account drop. The account balance however still shows as not having had this amount taken, so you see for example:

Account balance: 999
Available funds: 942

and if you go to pending transactions you'll see a recent debit card transaction for 57, this can be in the pending transaction section for a few days and then it's taken from the account and it will then show:

Account balance 942
Available Funds: 942

So this sale had gotten to that stage and they had to issue an actual refund as opposed to simply not taking the funds.

Beano

No offence Cormie but i think in this situation there is fault on both sides. You knew that there should not have been free shipping on the order yet you still insisted that they ship it anyway. Their reaction is a bit intransigent but again why should they take the hit for shipping charges. Also bear in mind that normal consumer laws dont apply. You were buying as a business not as a consumer so you dont have the same protections.

cormie

Yeah, their system did lead me to believe I was getting free shipping though and that's why I paid, I didn't pay much attention to the "free shipping" thing I saw previous but had £40 been added to the checkout for shipping, I wouldn't have paid. There's obviously a glitch in their system if they are now saying after that shipping should have been added too.

I wouldn't say I was insisting they ship it, merely suggesting they leave it as is since I brought it to their attention and I'm sure they have shipping deals where it wouldn't cost them much just to let it slide.

I was also being reasonable in suggesting they just ship it to my UK address and I really haven't a clue why they didn't agree to this. I could probably re-order it online now and have it shipped to parcel motel and it'll probably go through fine.

They seemed completely unwilling to compromise at all and putting a time limit for me to reply is pretty ridiculous too.

Interesting point about the consumer vs business sale, I heard that mentioned before that consumers have more rights, I wonder how it works in terms of cards being charged though like the above?

Beano

It would come down to whatever is in their terms and conditions. This bit probably covers them

6.3 Ownership of the Goods shall not pass to the Buyer until Boyz Toys has received in full (in cash or cleared funds) all sums due to it in respect of:
1. (a) the Goods; and
2. (b) All other sums which are or which become due to Boyz Toys from the Buyer on any account.

quadrifoglio verde

I thought the case with online sales was that a contract isn't formed until the item is shipped.
I know a year aho, vodafone mispriced a load of iPhones but no one got them even though the accounts were debited.

cormie

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't be insisting on them shipping anything but if they can let it slide, it would be very nice of them, if they could have just shipped it to the parcel motel address, it would have been a perfectly plausible solution since the order value qualified for the free shipping anyway. Instead they gave me a time limit, didn't respond to my last mail and just processed the refund, and I've actually lost out on it too. Amount debited: 67.61, amount credited: 67.38 :mad: Haha :pac:

delahuntv

as you entered a vat number you became a business account, so consumer law would not have applied anyway.

Also, they had delivery charges outlined on their site - that the site did not apply them at the time of order would not not absolve you from the charges

and finally - can everyone stop at the "my card was charged, so contract is in force" - I've yet to see this upheld anywhere as standard t&c's of websites cover all errors and mistakes.

and one more point - you could theoretically be charged with vat fraud as you have avoided vat by giving your corporate vat number and unless the purchase has to do with your business, the vat should be paid. Sporadic checks are carried out by the customs division of revenue in Athy on whether the business of a company matches the products purchased. (you would need to be very unlucky to get caught though - but it could be found in a revenue inspection!)


edit - extra point. If you had it delivered to a UK address, UK vat would be applied even if you have Irish vat number. The company must be able to show that the goods have been exported out of UK for eu vat rules to apply.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that post.

Interesting point about the business vs consumer protection. The only place I had heard before about the card being charged forming a contract was on boards.ie, some bargain alert threads actually, this is why I wasn't insisting they do anything, merely suggesting

Interesting about not being able to have it delivered to a UK address, I wonder would the fact it's a UK to IRE mail forwarding address change that though? I actually had another business recently ship something to parcel motel which I didn't pay UK vat on either.

About the fraud, I've nothing to worry about that end. I buy a LOT of things online and I'd only ever claim for things that are for business use.

delahuntv

cormie wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that post.

Interesting point about the business vs consumer protection. The only place I had heard before about the card being charged forming a contract was on boards.ie, some bargain alert threads actually, this is why I wasn't insisting they do anything, merely suggesting

Interesting about not being able to have it delivered to a UK address, I wonder would the fact it's a UK to IRE mail forwarding address change that though? I actually had another business recently ship something to parcel motel which I didn't pay UK vat on either.

About the fraud, I've nothing to worry about that end. I buy a LOT of things online and I'd only ever claim for things that are for business use.

Not suggesting fraud, but its good to know that they do match business descriptions up.
Sometimes a smaller company will deliver to a UK address, but if they get an inspection they will have to pay the vat themselves - but small invoices are rarely chosen in an inspection.

Yep, you'll find a lot of people who will claim "contract formed" for card payment - the same people claim "legal tender" for cash etc. And nearly always they are very very wrong becasue the very comprehensive standard terms and conditions will cover all eventualities.

cormie

Thanks again for the input. How would it work if I was to buy something abroad and show my VAT number? According to my accountant, they need to deduct the VAT at point of sale, but the two times I've tried this, buying items that again, were for business use, albeit from a consumer store, one time I was just given a form and told I'd need to claim it back at the border leaving the country the next time the manager of the store said they've never done it before and wouldn't do it. I ended up paying in full. This is in Germany and the UK so within the EU. I guess, what's to stop anyone just getting a VAT number off some receipt and going into a shop abroad claiming it's their own vat number and getting goods EX VAT?

delahuntv

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input. How would it work if I was to buy something abroad and show my VAT number? According to my accountant, they need to deduct the VAT at point of sale, but the two times I've tried this, buying items that again, were for business use, albeit from a consumer store, one time I was just given a form and told I'd need to claim it back at the border leaving the country the next time the manager of the store said they've never done it before and wouldn't do it. I ended up paying in full. This is in Germany and the UK so within the EU. I guess, what's to stop anyone just getting a VAT number off some receipt and going into a shop abroad claiming it's their own vat number and getting goods EX VAT?

If a company does not export generally, they simply won't offer it as its not worth the extra paperwork.

You can't force them to deduct the vat.

The other option is reclaiming from the country of dispatch yourself - not worth it for small amounts. There are third party compnaies that will do this. Companies that do trade shows abroad and have big expense in a short period would find it worthwhile.

I think Amazon charge UK vat when delivering to a Parcel Motel address - and Irish vat when delivering to ROI address, the vat (if its a business item) when delvered to the PM address is not reclaimable in the normal way on your Irish vat return. (cos it was paid to her majesty's revenue service!)

cormie

Thanks again for the info. Yeah it wouldn't be worth all the hassle to reclaim, maybe from the UK if I build up enough expenses over a few years as I'm driving there more than on the continent.

That's interesting about amazon, I knew they started charging 23% a while ago for orders shipped to Ireland, but that's actually a way for consumers to get expensive items cheaper, just get them shipped to PM @20% vat instead of 23% shipped to their Irish address.

For businesses, it's not such an issue as Amazon will usually ship to Ireland free once it's over £25 so no need to go PM.