Sale Agreed on House but Issues with Survey

ThunbergsAreGo

We recently went Sale agreed on a property but the survey has uncovered major problems with the septic tank (7k-14k repairs this has been an ongoing problem for the owner) and rot affected areas of the roof as well as multiple leaks (we have no estimate for this yet and were advised to get a roofing contractor into see this however the surveyor indicated this would not be insignificant).

The property has been on the market for over 3 years and we were the only people bidding on the property at the end.

What should I do? How should I approach this situation? How much reduction in price should I request?
Or let the vendor knows about the problem and get her own quotes for the repair?

I dont think we would be in a position to buy given these issues, but surely this will be an issue for anyone looking to purchase the property

Soft inda Head

naughtb4 wrote: »

We recently went Sale agreed on a property but the survey has uncovered major problems with the septic tank (7k-14k repairs this has been an ongoing problem for the owner) and rot affected areas of the roof as well as multiple leaks (we have no estimate for this yet and were advised to get a roofing contractor into see this however the surveyor indicated this would not be insignificant).

The property has been on the market for over 3 years and we were the only people bidding on the property at the end.

What should I do? How should I approach this situation? How much reduction in price should I request?
Or let the vendor knows about the problem and get her own quotes for the repair?

I dont think we would be in a position to buy given these issues, but surely this will be an issue for anyone looking to purchase the property

I would get full estimates and request deduction in price or allow her to have the work done to the satisfaction of your surveyor.

Soft inda Head

naughtb4 wrote: »

We recently went Sale agreed on a property but the survey has uncovered major problems with the septic tank (7k-14k repairs this has been an ongoing problem for the owner) and rot affected areas of the roof as well as multiple leaks (we have no estimate for this yet and were advised to get a roofing contractor into see this however the surveyor indicated this would not be insignificant).

The property has been on the market for over 3 years and we were the only people bidding on the property at the end.

What should I do? How should I approach this situation? How much reduction in price should I request?
Or let the vendor knows about the problem and get her own quotes for the repair?

I dont think we would be in a position to buy given these issues, but surely this will be an issue for anyone looking to purchase the property

I would get full estimates and request deduction in price or allow her to have the work done to the satisfaction of your surveyor.

Murray007

Unless you are prepared for bargaining hard and taking other issues that will arise after you buy, they are hiding things, then I would run away fast.

They don't want to sell at what the house is worth if it's been on the market for three years. They are waiting for the market to rise and hysteria to take over, if it's in Dublin City it is at that point.

Unless you are prepared to take the risk for the money, avoid, avoid, avoid. Build in 15% for unknowns. They will be expert after many surveys in disguising problems, I know what I am talking about.

Murray007

Also, don't throw good money after bad. If there are problems that you have identified from the survey, challenge them, they knew they existed from other surveys or if they say they were no other surveys in three years then point out to them that you are the only interest in three years they need to be realistic.

I wouldn't enter into further costs. They should pay for any further surveys if they want you as a buyer. Have you seen the shows on channel 4 of homes from hell, don't walk blindly into that door.

People walk into mess and then blame others, the banks, the surveyer etc and really they need to take a less emotional look at what they are committing to pay hundred of thousands for.

Sir Arthur Daley

A big factor is how you cheap you are buying the property for op.

Murray007

...and if you have the money to meet the unknowns when they come along and the time, mental and physical ability to deal with them.

A lot of people need a home to fit in with their current stage in life, if you have young children can you deal with what a fixer up home needs.

ThunbergsAreGo

All very good points I think we are not in a position to pay everything, not even taking the unknowns into account.

It was already a bit of a fixed upper but it's the larger hidden items which are worrying!

Sir Arthur Daley

naughtb4 wrote: »

It was already a bit of a fixed upper but it's the larger hidden items which are worrying!

If the roof is leaking the previous efforts must be poor. Sounds like the war paint is hiding alot of wrinkles.

okiss

I would walk away from this house due to the following:

A house with septic tank problems which will cost €7 to €14 k to repair could end up being far more. This type of work needs to be done properly otherwise you will have the problems the present owner has.

You have a roof with leaks along with rot effecting parts of the roof.
Because of this you will have water going into the house which could effect floor boards, electrics ect. You could also have major problems with dampness.

Just be thankful that your survey showed up all it's problems.
I know it is hard to walk away from a house you like to buy.
When you start to do work on a house like this you could any number of problems or other things that need to be repaired or replaced. Doing work on this type of house will cost more than you expect and take longer than you plan.

cpoh1

okiss wrote: »

A house with septic tank problems which will cost €7 to €14 k to repair could end up being far more. This type of work needs to be done properly otherwise you will have the problems the present owner has.

You have a roof with leaks along with rot effecting parts of the roof.
Because of this you will have water going into the house which could effect floor boards, electrics ect. You could also have major problems with dampness.

Just be thankful that your survey showed up all it's problems.
I know it is hard to walk away from a house you like to buy.
When you start to do work on a house like this you could any number of problems or other things that need to be repaired or replaced. Doing work on this type of house will cost more than you expect and take longer than you plan.

Stupid question here but what the heck - do you not think a surveyor i.e. engineer will not have given decent estimates for the work he has identified the house requires?

Saying things like "could end up far more" or "cost more than you expect" doesn't take into account that a professional has already looked at the house and given an evaluation on the work required. If its not in the survey its unlikely that it'll be an issue i.e. a survey will find anything of issue worth mentioning.

OP the engineer will err on the side of caution with this - the cost will unlikely exceed the cost estimates he has given you. My advice is to go back to the vendor and explain the situation with him. Tell him you are very serious about going through with the sale but these items need fixing on their part first. Ask them do they see any other solutions besides them fixing the work?

DO NOT go in looking for -€XXX off the bat straight away as you will get their back up. Remember this is their home and people dont like being told its a mess.


Softly softly is the best approach here but be prepared to walk away if you are going to be end up more out of pocket for the until now unseen issues.

Murray007

The OP said that he had a survey done, as would be normal, not a full structural survey.

The basic house survey will only pick up what is obvious, they will not even climb into the loft if it is remotely inaccessible.

Going for a full structural survey when there is so many obvious issues is, in my opinion, throwing good money after bad.

If you add in that the house has been on the market for 3 years it means that the sellers are not interested in selling at the actual market value of the house and are holding out either for a soft touch to come along or for the market to get to hysterical levels again.

cpoh1

Murray007 wrote: »

The OP said that he had a survey done, as would be normal, not a full structural survey.

The basic house survey will only pick up what is obvious, they will not even climb into the loft if it is remotely inaccessible.

Can you explain what the difference between a "standard" survey and a full structural survey is?

miss no stars

cpoh1 wrote: »

Stupid question here but what the heck - do you not think a surveyor i.e. engineer will not have given decent estimates for the work he has identified the house requires?

Saying things like "could end up far more" or "cost more than you expect" doesn't take into account that a professional has already looked at the house and given an evaluation on the work required. If its not in the survey its unlikely that it'll be an issue i.e. a survey will find anything of issue worth mentioning.

OP the engineer will err on the side of caution with this - the cost will unlikely exceed the cost estimates he has given you. My advice is to go back to the vendor and explain the situation with him. Tell him you are very serious about going through with the sale but these items need fixing on their part first. Ask them do they see any other solutions besides them fixing the work?

No NO no. No.

What a decent engineer will have done is caveated the issue by effectively saying that until everything is opened up fully (I'm assuming the survey was non-invasive!) there's no way to tell the full extent of the problems and so pricing should be a guideline only.

Sulla Felix

cpoh1 wrote: »

Can you explain what the difference between a "standard" survey and a full structural survey is?

Pulling open walls to check the state of cabling, pulling up floors etc etc. With leaks in the roof there's a lot of places that water could end up that won't be immediately obvious from poking around in a crawlspace.

cpoh1

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Pulling open walls to check the state of cabling, pulling up floors etc etc. With leaks in the roof there's a lot of places that water could end up that won't be immediately obvious from poking around in a crawlspace.

That's not the point, there is no such thing as a structural surveyor like you described and there isint a chartered engineer in the country who will do what you are describing above for a house survey.

cpoh1

miss no stars wrote: »

No NO no. No.

What a decent engineer will have done is caveated the issue by effectively saying that until everything is opened up fully (I'm assuming the survey was non-invasive!) there's no way to tell the full extent of the problems and so pricing should be a guideline only.

Of course pricing is guideline only but any engineer worth his salt will do a little more than have a quick look and throw a guideline figure at a fix. These guys are paid to assess the condition of a house, determine knock on effects of any flaws and put an order of magnitude on it. They also err on the side of caution so it is extremely unlikely that a future fix will work out at more than their order of magnitude costs. It's called covering their arses.

Sulla Felix

cpoh1 wrote: »

That's not the point, there is no such thing as a structural surveyor like you described and there isint a chartered engineer in the country who will do what you are describing above for a house survey.

That is the point. Because they can't do all of that, they can't be sure that the vendor isn't hiding more. It was the survey that showed up the damp, if the vendor had told them about it'd be fine but they probably hoped it wouldn't be found until after the cheque was cashed.

cpoh1

Sulla Felix wrote: »

That is the point. Because they can't do all of that, they can't be sure that the vendor isn't hiding more. It was the survey that showed up the damp, if the vendor had told them about it'd be fine but they probably hoped it wouldn't be found until after the cheque was cashed.

If a structural survey from a chartered engineer cant see or determine issues with a house then what makes you think the owner joe soap with no qualifications even knows about the issue and is hiding something? Believe it or not there are lots of very ordinary honest people out there too and although you have to be safe and cover yourself in cases where a decent engineer has reviewed the house you have to trust that these guys know what they are doing.

To go back to your original point, there is no such thing or service from any chartered surveying engineer I have heard of that has a standard survey package and a structural survey package. They survey the house, and the odd time recommend additional opening up works by a building contractor for additional inspection. It is important to note that this is usually a covering of the arse exercise on their part.

I just dont want you confusing the OP.

ThunbergsAreGo

Yes i dont think the roof thing was trying to hide anything as they had left pots out to "catch" any leak. Obviously its hard to know where and how bad any leaks are with this weather atm!

Still waiting on the septic tank report (which wasnt registered) before going back to the estate agent

Murray007

cpoh1 wrote: »

If a structural survey from a chartered engineer cant see or determine issues with a house then what makes you think the owner joe soap with no qualifications even knows about the issue and is hiding something? Believe it or not there are lots of very ordinary honest people out there too and although you have to be safe and cover yourself in cases where a decent engineer has reviewed the house you have to trust that these guys know what they are doing.

To go back to your original point, there is no such thing or service from any chartered surveying engineer I have heard of that has a standard survey package and a structural survey package. They survey the house, and the odd time recommend additional opening up works by a building contractor for additional inspection. It is important to note that this is usually a covering of the arse exercise on their part.

I just dont want you confusing the OP.

If you haven't heard of a standard survey and a full structural survey then maybe you are not qualified to make recommendations on them.

miss no stars

Guys, have you never heard of people renovating and opening a can of worms with what they find? People who've lived in the house for years and never seen the problem til the wallpaper and plasterboard is down, ceilings are off and suddenly a problem is exposed? Seriously, the engineer can only quote for what they can see. Normally it's not possible to go knocking through walls. Can't believe that has to be explained.

cpoh1

Murray007 wrote: »

If you haven't heard of a standard survey and a full structural survey then maybe you are not qualified to make recommendations on them.

I am a chartered PMP Engineer myself. It was a polite way of telling ye guys ye having a fe*cking notion what ye are talking about.

cpoh1

miss no stars wrote: »

Guys, have you never heard of people renovating and opening a can of worms with what they find? People who've lived in the house for years and never seen the problem til the wallpaper and plasterboard is down, ceilings are off and suddenly a problem is exposed? Seriously, the engineer can only quote for what they can see. Normally it's not possible to go knocking through walls. Can't believe that has to be explained.

Miss no stars you are spot on of course but you're looking at it in laymans terms. It is standard practice for a surveyor to say "this is what i can see and best case scenario would be €X to fix. Worst case A+B+C may have been affected as a knock-on affect so worst case estimate is €X+Y is your exposure". Then they normally add another 20% on top of that. There are some cases where there are truly unforseen issues that come up but it is rare.

miss no stars

cpoh1 wrote: »

Miss no stars you are spot on of course but you're looking at it in laymans terms. It is standard practice for a surveyor to say "this is what i can see and best case scenario would be €X to fix. Worst case A+B+C may have been affected as a knock-on affect so worst case estimate is €X+Y is your exposure". Then they normally add another 20% on top of that. There are some cases where there are truly unforseen issues that come up but it is rare.

cpoh1, I write these reports myself

I'm explaining it in layman's terms because everyone here seems to think that the engineer will be able to tell them everything that's possibly wrong (or that could be wrong as a consequence of what they've seen) with the house based on nothing more than a walkover inspection, and quote them the cost of rectification and there's no way the true cost could ever be more and nothing else could ever be uncovered that would cost extra.

It's simply the case that most surveys are walkover inspections. They catch an awful lot and the experience of the engineer will come into play as well. But the reality is that unless you can convince the vendor to agree to an invasive survey (and if the house is in good condition this is not exactly likely!), there's a risk that a problem exists that can't be seen and there's nothing that obviously points to it as a problem. (eg. minor cracking in a new house built on piled foundations might be attributed more logically to drying of the timber frame than movement of the foundations)

ETA: If your engineer is good, comes with personal recommendations and you're happy with how comprehensive and specific and tailored to YOUR prospective purchase it is, then the chances of them having missed something really big are low enough. I don't want to go scaring anyone into thinking huge problems lurk where they aren't, but I wouldn't be approaching estimates to fix things as hard and fast maximums. They're estimates based on what can be seen without exposing the structure.

ThunbergsAreGo

One of the issues that has come up is that the septic tank is actually inaccessible due to the growth of vegatation around it. Would this be the existing owners responsibility to clear?

Without this being clear we cannot be sure of the state of the spetic tank