My friend's landlord accuses her of owing rents

Kobe

My friend has been living in the same house for more or less 6 years and has always paid her rent. Around 2 weeks ago, her landlord sent her a letter from the US (he lives there) asking for 1200euro that he said she owes him. My friend send him an email saying that she owe him nothing and can prove with all the bank slips. She is now waiting for his reply.

Here are the questions:
1. what if my friend shows all bank slips but her landlord still doesn't give up?
2. what can my friend do to protect her right as a tenant?
3. if she decides to move out because of this case, can she get back her deposit?
4. The fridge in the house has broken for weeks but her landlord still hasn't had it fixed or replaced, she then bought a small fridge for temporary use, can she do something about it? for example file a complaint?

ted1

How dies your friend pay the rent?
If it's directly to the landlord she must withhold the VAT content ad pay directly to revenue.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

You friend can help our economy while teaching the landlord a lesson

shruikan2553

If she is paying through the bank then she has a trail and he can do nothing. Does she have a lease stating the rent?

Kobe

She pays through the bank every month. I think she told me that she has no contract at the moment, will it be a problem?

shruikan2553

No, if its been x amount for a long time and theres no written proof of a rent increase then x will be seen as the rent and any attempts at eviction would be illegal. She should be keeping 20% of the rent for revenue, could this be where he thinks he isnt getting the full rent?

davo10

Does she pay by standing order or does she lodge the money in the bank each month(you mention pay slips)?

If it's SO on the same date each month, then LL may be mistaken and it will be easy to prove. On the other hand if your friend is lodging the money then a day late here and there, a week late because he/she was away etc etc over 6 years and suddenly instead of 72 payments there might be only 69, that on the other hand will be easy for the LL to prove if rent was paid into the same account over the 6 years.

handlemaster

ted1 wrote: »

How dies your friend pay the rent?
If it's directly to the landlord she must withhold the VAT content ad pay directly to revenue.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

You friend can help our economy while teaching the landlord a lesson

Why jump on the landlord straight off the bat. The landlord thinks hé/she is owed rent and asked for sa me. If tenant proves wise so be it.

ted1

handlemaster wrote: »

Why jump on the landlord straight off the bat. The landlord thinks hé/she is owed rent and asked for sa me. If tenant proves wise so be it.

Well legally the tenant is obliged to keep 20% and give it to the revenue. That's a fact.

Kobe

My friend pays through the lodgement slip each month, she doesn't keep the 20 per cent for tax and she is sure that the landlord doesn't pay for the tax neither.

Dredd_J

Is he isnt keeping revenues portion of the rent and paying the landlord the full amount, then what happens when revenue come looking for their share?
Will the landlord have to pay it, or will the tenant have to? Who will revenue chase for it?

The_Morrigan

Dredd_J wrote: »

Is he isnt keeping revenues portion of the rent and paying the landlord the full amount, then what happens when revenue come looking for their share?
Will the landlord have to pay it, or will the tenant have to? Who will revenue chase for it?

From the revenues website:

What If Your Landlord Is Not Resident In The State?

If your landlord resides outside the Republic of Ireland (the State) and you pay rent directly to them or to their bank account either in the State or abroad, you must deduct income tax at the standard rate of tax (currently 20%) from the gross rents payable.

Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted.

Example

Gross Rent per month €1,000
Deduct tax €200
Pay to Landord €800

At the end of the year, you must give a completed pdfForm R185 (PDF, 237KB)* to your landlord to show that the tax has been accounted for to Revenue. The landlord can then claim this amount as credit on their annual Tax Return.

Where the non-resident landlord has an agent, who is resident in the State collecting the rent, you should pay the gross rent to the agent without deduction of income tax.

The agent is then chargeable to tax on the rents as Collection Agent for the landlord and is required to submit an annual tax return and account for the tax due under Self-Assessment. Leaflet IT10 - Guide to Self-Assessment provides more detailed information.

Note: The agent appointed need not be a professional person, e.g.. they can be a family member or other person prepared to take on the responsibility and who undertakes to make annual tax returns and account to Revenue for any tax due.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section18

Kobe

The_Morrigan wrote: »

From the revenues website:

This line worries me:

"Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted."

Kobe

shruikan2553 wrote: »

No, if its been x amount for a long time and theres no written proof of a rent increase then x will be seen as the rent and any attempts at eviction would be illegal. She should be keeping 20% of the rent for revenue, could this be where he thinks he isnt getting the full rent?

She hasn't got any notice about rent increase.

leeroybrown

Kobe wrote: »

This line worries me:

"Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted."

The Revenue would find it very difficult to impose an income tax liability on a non-resident individual so the responsibility is shifted to the tenant.

Dredd_J

leeroybrown wrote: »

The Revenue would find it very difficult to impose an income tax liability on a non-resident individual so the responsibility is shifted to the tenant.

So she is stuck for tax on the rent now too.
Very unlucky there.

MugMugs

Easily solved really. Prove that she has paid up. Withold the amount that she's liable to pay revenue from her next rent and pay revenue. Simples.

The_Morrigan

MugMugs wrote: »

Easily solved really. Prove that she has paid up. Withold the amount that she's liable to pay revenue from her next rent and pay revenue. Simples.

I don't think one month of rent will cover six years of taxes though.

handlemaster

ted1 wrote: »

Well legally the tenant is obliged to keep 20% and give it to the revenue. That's a fact.

And ? Maybe The tenant has underpaid.

Dredd_J

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I don't think one month of rent will cover six years of taxes though.

And revenue like to punish those who dont pay the taxes in the period they are due.

MugMugs

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I don't think one month of rent will cover six years of taxes though.

Agreed. So the ops friend withholds the amount owed for as long as is needed. As for revenue pursuing the ops friend for interest im sure a deal can be cut. They're not the Bastards people like to believe they are.

No Pants

What if you don't know where your landlord lives? My last landlord, and we're talking about 2006/07 here, I only met him twice. Once to collect the keys and then to return them a year later. I have idea where they were in the meantime and I had no idea that I had this responsibility for the landlord's tax compliance forced upon me.

Kobe

No Pants wrote: »

What if you don't know where your landlord lives? My last landlord, and we're talking about 2006/07 here, I only met him twice. Once to collect the keys and then to return them a year later. I have idea where they were in the meantime and I had no idea that I had this responsibility for the landlord's tax compliance forced upon me.

yes actually my friend doesn't know where the landlord lives.

Kobe

My friend will wait for the landlord's reply and then see what to do next.

athtrasna

Kobe wrote: »

yes actually my friend doesn't know where the landlord lives.

Well your first post says he lives in the US so as long as your friend knows that the landlord is not resident that's all revenue will care about.

Kobe

athtrasna wrote: »

Well your first post says he lives in the US so as long as your friend knows that the landlord is not resident that's all revenue will care about.

Oh yes she knows that he's in the US but doesn't know his address.

davo10

Kobe wrote: »

Oh yes she knows that he's in the US but doesn't know his address.

How does she know he lives in US? Is he a full time resident there or as a lot if people do, just live there part of the year and therefore still a resident here for tax purposes? Is this his only property or does he have a registered property company portfolio based here, then 20% held for Revenue is moot.

OP, regardless of where she thinks the LL, the issue is she may not have paid all her rent owed. If she has slips/bank statements, she will be able to see how many payments are made. If on the other hand, she has been late a number of times over the years, monthly payment dates may have shifted and if may be very easy for LL to prove she owes money. It is very, very simple for him to do this, he just counts up the months your friend has been there and checks the number of monthly payments she has made on his bank statements.

Zamboni

No contract, revenue issue, rent debt dispute, potential withholding of deposit...
I'd simply leave. If a call from the revenue comes in (highly unlikely) just plead complete ignorance on knowing where landlord lived.

Please tell me they are paying into Irish bank account?
If they are, walk away.

MiseryMary

If he starts harassing her for payments even tho she can prove it print them out for backup and also refusing to give her deposit back over this ,she could get a solicitor/lawyer sue him for harassment /unnecessary stress

Sulla Felix

Have to echo Zamboni, I'd get out. Hold onto the next months rent, I don't usually advise this! But with him out of the country and already in dispute, there's not a chance she'll be getting the deposit back.
Between the dispute, him being out of the state and the tax issue it's not worth the bother.

handlemaster

MiseryMary wrote: »

If he starts harassing her for payments even tho she can prove it print them out for backup and also refusing to give her deposit back over this ,she could get a solicitor/lawyer sue him for harassment /unnecessary stress

All jumping the gun a bit.

davo10

Zamboni wrote: »

No contract, revenue issue, rent debt dispute, potential withholding of deposit...
I'd simply leave. If a call from the revenue comes in (highly unlikely) just plead complete ignorance on knowing where landlord lived.

Please tell me they are paying into Irish bank account?
If they are, walk away.

Whoooa there, She does not need a contract, she had Part 4 tenancy up to the fourth year which continues thereafter. She got a letter regarding rent, this is a binary issue, either she owes it or she doesn't, it is easy for both parties to prove their viewpoint. Nobody said anything about withholding a deposit, the tenant is not leaving at the moment and so far there is no proof LL lives/pays tax in another country.

OP is entitled to give notice but must show that all rent is up to date, if not, LL is absolutely entitled to retain deposit.

Orim

A lot of guns being jumped here. We don't even know why the rent is being disputed yet. It could be all a misunderstanding and people are talking about moving out.

Best guess is that it's down to monthly payments being made and somebody in the situation not accounting for a discrepancy in the payments owed. Should be easily resolved with a chat and maybe a bit of compromise on behalf of whoever made the mistake.

As an aside, it's crazy that a tenant is supposed to responsible for their landlord's tax affairs. I don't think I've known if any of my landlords have been resident here.

Kobe

still no news until now, will keep everyone posted when my friend gets reply from her landlord.

Sulla Felix

Orim wrote: »

A lot of guns being jumped here. We don't even know why the rent is being disputed yet. It could be all a misunderstanding and people are talking about moving out.

Best guess is that it's down to monthly payments being made and somebody in the situation not accounting for a discrepancy in the payments owed. Should be easily resolved with a chat and maybe a bit of compromise on behalf of whoever made the mistake.

As an aside, it's crazy that a tenant is supposed to responsible for their landlord's tax affairs. I don't think I've known if any of my landlords have been resident here.

On that note alone I'd advise moving out because she's been in tenancy too long to just start holding back the due tax now.

h2005

How realistic is it that revenue go after her for the unpaid tax? If its a real possibility I'd be cutting my losses.

davo10

Sulla Felix wrote: »

On that note alone I'd advise moving out because she's been in tenancy too long to just start holding back the due tax now.

Ok, on the one hand OP is not sure where LL lives, whether he has a property company here which is registered with revenue, whether he lives here part time and pays tax here. What we do know is that OPs friend has lived in a house for 6 years, it is her home, she pays the rent and has slips (so is probably by lodgement) and that her LL thinks she owes rent, which is easy to prove by the way. Who says she has to hold back money due to tax now?

If she follows your advice:

1. she is leaving her home.
2. she may lose her deposit if she does indeed owe rent.
2. if she hasn't paid the remainder there will be no reference.
4. she will have to go house hunting possibly in a market with increasing rents and competition for nice houses.

eezipc

This may be a bit simple, but has anyone considered that the landlord may have made an error?
Perhaps the landlord owns other properties and sent the letter to the wrong house by accident.
If it were me, I would not be too worried yet as long as I have proof of paying rent each month.
Best just to wait for feedback from the landlord.

odds_on

MiseryMary wrote: »

If he starts harassing her for payments even tho she can prove it print them out for backup and also refusing to give her deposit back over this ,she could get a solicitor/lawyer sue him for harassment /unnecessary stress

Surely, in the first instance, it's up to the landlord to indicate when payments, either in part or in full, have been missed. If the landlord knows, then he should say when and by how much.

Furthermore, the landlord is obliged to provide his address (or an address in the State, though I stand to be corrected of the "within the State" point) where legal documents may be served. This includes documents from the PRTB should a case be brought against him.

If there never was a lease, then a rent book must be furnished and which must include the landlord's (or his agent's address, for the same purpose.

Kobe

My friend finally got the long waiting reply (took about one week), he simply just apologized and said it was a mistake.
She relieved but lost faith and the same time, will probably move out when she finds a good house for rent in her area. I have to say thank you to everyone here, really helped my friend at lot, she's not a user of this forum but she's following this thread.

odds_on

Don't forget she will have to give 56 days notice in writing.