Hand built wheels or off the shelf Mavic Ksyrium....

The Noble Nudge

I have my eye on these but would I be better getting a set handbuilt???
I cant seem to get a weight rating on the Mavic ones...

Mavic Ksyrium Elite S WTS Wheelset
http://www.4thebike.de/laufraeder/rennrad/aluminium/8756/mavic-ksyrium-elite-s-wts
The legendary Ksyrium Elite - now even easier! Because it has the high-end technologies that until now were Mavic's top models reserved, makes the Ksyrium Elite S especially in terms of (light) weight a great advance, which few competitors can follow. And its performance is improved by the new, extra-light Yksion per tire again. ISM weight tuning on the rim and the hub design to reduce the inertia by 30%, while the low profile wheels (front) leads to a more agile handling . Optimized bearings positioning -. Shaft deflection for lower and higher lateral stiffness The Yksion Pro Grip Link tire is the right tire when it matters particularly to tire grip. Its special features to make the difference in cornering and match with the performance of Mavic front wheel-tire. Its grippy compound and the particular tire tread guarantee optimum adhesion under all (weather) conditions.

pete_9715

well i have these and notice a marked improvement on the standard wheels i had i gathered speed a lot easier on freewheel downhill compared to mates with me but im not an expert so cant offer any technical advice.

doozerie

Which one is "better" depends entirely on where your priorities lie. Either option should give you a set of wheels which work well *if* the handbuilt ones are built by a good wheel builder.

As for priorities, do you care about the longer term implications of a factory wheelset? - specifically, factory wheelsets are generally not very cost effective to rebuild if/when that becomes necessary. So, once the rim wears out it'll probably be very expensive to buy a new rim, assuming you can even find one of those rims at all. Similarly, spokes on factory built wheels can be very expensive to replace too. In short, many factory wheelsets are essentially disposable. Many people are happy to live with that of course, I have some factory wheelsets myself that I bought in the full knowledge that rebuilding them might never be feasible.

Handbuilt wheelsets, on the other hand, can be rebuilt as needed assuming they are built with "standard" parts. That's of benefit for a variety of reasons - for example, for a winter bike I like knowing that should I break a spoke on my handbuilt wheels, I can adjust the other spokes easily enough to minimise the buckle and ensure I can still ride it home (you can do that with some factory wheelsets too, depends on spoke count, design, etc.), and once home I can easily source a replacement spoke to restore the wheels to full health again. Also, I can re-use the same set of hubs again and again by replacing the rims as they wear out - mind you, it may mean spending more from the outset in order to get hubs of good enough quality that it's worth re-using them indefinitely.

My attitude towards wheels has changed over the years. I've been building my own commute wheels for years but still went for the slightly exotic option of factory wheels for my "good" bikes. I've come to value handbuilt wheels more and more though. Maybe I'm becoming more of a hermit as I age but I value self reliance more over time, and while I still really really like, for example, my Rolf Vector Vigor wheelset, with their paired spokes, for their performance, comfort, and appearance, I know that if I ever snap a single spoke during a ride then I'm walking home. So these days I use them only on days where that's not such a big deal (sunny days, race days, local routes, etc.), and I consider them great for racing, the rest of the time I mostly use my handbuilts and carry a spoke key with me.

In short, it's very subjective and it's impossible to be definitive, but general rules of thumb are: handbuilt wheels (well, the hubs anyway) have a longer lifespan *if* the hubs are decent; handbuilt wheels can be more expensive; handbuilt wheels can perform better if the wheelbuilder is *very* good as they can tailor them to your needs; handbuilt wheels will make old cycling codgers smile. Factory wheels are usually cheaper; factory wheels can be sexier (not so true these days as exotic handbuilts are much more readily available).

The Noble Nudge

Thanks Doozerie,
I'm still serving the apprenticeship year 3 so looking at ways to improve and thinking of possibly becoming a two bike person..and possibly racing next year or at least taking a step up with half decent equipment.

The Noble Nudge

pete_9715 wrote: »

well i have these and notice a marked improvement on the standard wheels i had i gathered speed a lot easier on freewheel downhill compared to mates with me but im not an expert so cant offer any technical advice.

I didn't want to hijack your tread are you going for a different mavic K to this? I'm on my phone here so limited to microscope mode

ckeego

I'm with doozerie on this one..

Be very careful with Mavic...Kysrium rims (in particular) if they need to be replaced cost as much as a new wheel.

I have also experienced (twice in a week) how Mavic's quality has dropped in the last few years-particularly the rim builds. The spoke nipples and housings are being made with much cheaper and poorer quality materials than they were 3 or 4 years ago-have had one rim failure myself (Kysrium Equipe where the spoke housings cracked and pulled) and was witness to a club mate's high end wheel disintegrate mid week -his failure could have been very serious as it happened at the end of a very fast descent in Ashford..

zindicato

zondas lighter than the elite and 320 euros in swimcycle run delivered:-)

Seweryn

ckeego wrote: »

I'm with doozerie on this one..

Me too.

I covered a lot of distance on Ksyriums Equipe wheels, as they came with the bike. But when the rims worn out, I built my own set of wheels and I like them a lot more than the Ksyriums. They are much nicer to ride, more stable in corners (the rims are wider at 23mm), more comfortable, spin smooth and easy, they are serviceable with a couple of spanners, and importantly, they can be rebuild again using the same or different rims at a reasonable cost.

The thing with any off the shelf wheels is that they are designed for anybody and nobody in particular, i.e. you get exactly the same set of wheels if you are a slim racer or a heavy-ish leisure cyclist. A hand-built set is designed and build for you and your riding style with the right combination of components, number, shape and thickness of spokes on each wheel, type of spoke lacing, choice of rims, hubs, etc. You decide where you want to put most of the money - into the hub (recommended) or into rims. You can have a set tuned for stiffness or comfort, or you can put all the effort into creating a very reliable wheelset, or very lightweight, etc. It is all your choice. Sounds great, I know .

Another problem mentioned already is the cost of spares for the boutique type wheels like the Ksyriums. When the rims wear out, you will most likely put them into the bin and will go to buy a new set.

All in all, from my own experience I would go with hand-built any time.

Lumen

There's no point in buying handbuilt unless you have ongoing access to a good wheelbuilder for rebuilds (which may be yourself, of course).

Seweryn

Lumen wrote: »

There's no point in buying handbuilt unless you have ongoing access to a good wheelbuilder for rebuilds (which may be yourself, of course).

That is very true actually. I was looking for a good wheel builder around my area and as I couldn't find anyone that would do it (or anyone with a good reputation), I decided to give it a go myself.

doozerie

Lumen wrote: »

There's no point in buying handbuilt unless you have ongoing access to a good wheelbuilder for rebuilds (which may be yourself, of course).

Absolutely. They can be hard to find, but based on comments posted here in the past there seem to be some good ones in various places around Dublin, I don't recall whether anyone recommended wheelbuilders elsewhere in the country.

There are some very good ones in the UK who are happy to ship wheels back and forth but obviously that incurs extra cost and delays, so a decent local wheelbuilder is definitely preferable.

fat bloke

I know everyone likes the idea of bespoke handbuilt everything, whether it's a a handbag or a sandwich but mother of God the sh1t that any mavic I've ever had can put up with with never a squeak or a buckle or a complaint of any kind is .... deeply impressive.

Right down to the basic aksiums. I think they're amazing. Buy 'em, fit 'em, forget about 'em. By contrast I've had a couple of open pro builds that were a pain in the a$$. Broken spokes, loose spokes, buckles and wobbles that needed truing every 3rd or 4th spin. I wouldn't bother with them again. My winter training aksiums still clean up like a new pin and are straight as an arrow. - I think as Lumen said, if I lived down the road from Mr Wheelsmith.co.uk then I'd love a set of his wheels and I could knock on his door to register any complaints, but seeing as I don't it's mass market wheels for all for me all the way.

The Noble Nudge

fat bloke wrote: »

I know everyone likes the idea of bespoke handbuilt everything, whether it's a a handbag or a sandwich but mother of God the sh1t that any mavic I've ever had can put up with with never a squeak or a buckle or a complaint of any kind is .... deeply impressive.

Right down to the basic aksiums. I think they're amazing. Buy 'em, fit 'em, forget about 'em. By contrast I've had a couple of open pro builds that were a pain in the a$$. Broken spokes, loose spokes, buckles and wobbles that needed truing every 3rd or 4th spin. I wouldn't bother with them again. My winter training aksiums still clean up like a new pin and are straight as an arrow. - I think as Lumen said, if I lived down the road from Mr Wheelsmith.co.uk then I'd love a set of his wheels and I could knock on his door to register any complaints, but seeing as I don't it's mass market wheels for all for me all the way.

Gone through 3 aksium wheels since Christmas...out of the 3 one was 1 was down a pot hole...I've have had a few too many speed wobbles now at this stage which has led me to investigate a wheel upgrade and not have a lot of confidence in the bomb proof aksium.
Maybe my descending position needs to be altered but seem to be at my limit..

ford2600

The Noble Nudge wrote: »

Gone through 3 aksium wheels since Christmas...out of the 3 one was 1 was down a pot hole...I've have had a few too many speed wobbles now at this stage which has led me to investigate a wheel upgrade and not have a lot of confidence in the bomb proof aksium.
Maybe my descending position needs to be altered but seem to be at my limit..

I used to rate Aksium's but had a 2012 pair which were of much poorer quality than previous pairs.

@Letape is selling another pair of really nice wheels in adverts section.

I'm guessing it's the rear wheel that failed? If so consider rose for a 105 hub wheel with 32/36 spokes which will be good value reliable if a little heavy.

doozerie

fat bloke wrote: »

I know everyone likes the idea of bespoke handbuilt everything, whether it's a a handbag or a sandwich but mother of God the sh1t that any mavic I've ever had can put up with with never a squeak or a buckle or a complaint of any kind is .... deeply impressive.

Right down to the basic aksiums. I think they're amazing. Buy 'em, fit 'em, forget about 'em. By contrast I've had a couple of open pro builds that were a pain in the a$$. Broken spokes, loose spokes, buckles and wobbles that needed truing every 3rd or 4th spin. I wouldn't bother with them again. My winter training aksiums still clean up like a new pin and are straight as an arrow. - I think as Lumen said, if I lived down the road from Mr Wheelsmith.co.uk then I'd love a set of his wheels and I could knock on his door to register any complaints, but seeing as I don't it's mass market wheels for all for me all the way.

Problems like that with a hand built wheel suggest that the quality of the build was poor. The broken spokes might suggest that the quality (or compatibility) of some components was poor too, but that also reflects poorly on the builder if they suggested the parts or didn’t question the choice/combination.

When it comes to hand built wheels, finding a decent builder is certainly a challenge. Anyone can build a wheel and unfortunately it seems like some people (or the bike shops that employ them) are more than willing to sell their supposed skills when in reality they really haven’t a clue what they are doing.

…as an aside, that was one of the main reasons that I started building my own wheels, and was also the main reason that I stopped using bike shops to get any work done on my bikes - through a few bad experiences I lost all faith in the “skills” that I was paying for. I was spoiled by the high standards of work (including wheel building) available to me where I lived before moving to Dublin, and perhaps I was just plain unlucky with my choice of local Dublin bike shops (I tried about 3 or 4 of them), but within a couple of years of living here I decided that no local bike shop aspired to the same standards as I did. Not all bike shops are as bad as my experiences suggest of course, I’ve long since heard of good Dublin shops that have existed for quite a while and some new shops seem to be doing a good job too.

Anyway, that’s why a good wheelbuilder is such a valuable resource. If you find one, their wheels will convince you of the benefits of hand built. There are obviously some very good factory-built wheels available, but in my mind a (good!) hand-built wheel offers the prospect of better performance, better reliability, longer lifespan, and ultimately better value for money. By contrast, a wheel built by hand by a rubbish wheelbuilder is far worse than any factory wheel in every respect.