Microfinance Ireland

markiemark2005

I would like to pass on my experience of dealing with Microfinance Ireland to people considering making an application. I have a technology product which is almost completed but an investor pulled out at the last minute due to personal reasons, so I decided to apply to MF for a small loan of €4000 to get the final bits and pieces completed and put the product on the market and in a position to generate revenue (or fail!!!!). The application process is straight forward enough, fill out a form and submit a business plan and then an interview with a loan assessor.

Upon approval you are then asked to submit a number of documents, if you are a limited company you need to submit two proofs of address and one photo ID (certified) for each director. Bizarrely, electronic copies of bills as a proof of address are not acceptable. Considering that most people transact their bill payments online these days this requirement can be difficult to satisfy in a timely manner. Also, for some reason they will not accept a driving license as a proof of ID and address. As the other director of my company does not have a current passport the driving license can only be used to prove his address, thus leaving the ID part difficult to satisfy.

They also require a tax clearance cert for the company, if you have not traded its most likely you are not registered for VAT or tax, so again, this will take you time to get the documents required.

Overall, it looks like it could be a good scheme,the staff are very friendly and professional but be prepared to jump through hoops to draw down any loan if approved.

jimmii

In fairness those ID/address conditions are pretty standard. Ebills are a lot easier to fake than regular bills of which some have small security features that can be checked. It actually sounds a little more straight forward than I expected! Hope it turned out well for you and you are able to get the product to market!

markiemark2005

jimmii wrote: »

In fairness those ID/address conditions are pretty standard. Ebills are a lot easier to fake than regular bills of which some have small security features that can be checked. It actually sounds a little more straight forward than I expected! Hope it turned out well for you and you are able to get the product to market!

Have used printouts of bills many times before, faking a bill would be fraud. As far as I know and can see, internet bills are exactly the same as the posted ones. The exact same bar codes are on them. I decided to withdraw my MF application as their documentation requirements are excessive.

jimmii

Obviously faking something like that would be fraud and taking ebills just makes that easier. They are far from being exactly the same otherwise everywhere would take them as standard. I've worked a few places that look for proof of address and there are things to look for other than that the codes are correct.

delahuntv

markiemark2005 wrote: »

Have used printouts of bills many times before, faking a bill would be fraud. As far as I know and can see, internet bills are exactly the same as the posted ones. The exact same bar codes are on them. I decided to withdraw my MF application as their documentation requirements are excessive.

I think you have a bit to learn. Withdrawing applcation due to very basic ID requirments either shows that you don't really need the finance or you just couldn't be arsed complying with fairly standard conditions that will be the same with ANY finance.

Irish driving licence is too easy to fake and therefore is not seen a proper ID (you can't get on a plane without a passport or national ID card) - passport of identity card (if from another country) is the only verifiable form of photo id due to the security checks taken on issue of the passport.

Hard copy originals of household bill to prove your address is also standard - yes presenting a bill is fraud, you don't think anyone would do that???!!!

ID checks are for YOUR protection - it ensures someone is who they are.

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

I think you have a bit to learn. Withdrawing applcation due to very basic ID requirments either shows that you don't really need the finance or you just couldn't be arsed complying with fairly standard conditions that will be the same with ANY finance.

I would not have applied for the finance if I did not need it, it will take at least another week to get postal versions of the bills, its a waste of time.

delahuntv wrote: »

Irish driving licence is too easy to fake and therefore is not seen a proper ID (you can't get on a plane without a passport or national ID card) - passport of identity card (if from another country) is the only verifiable form of photo id due to the security checks taken on issue of the passport.

Utter nonsense. A driving license is difficult to fake. Aer Lingus accept a driving license as ID to board a flight.

delahuntv wrote: »

Hard copy originals of household bill to prove your address is also standard - yes presenting a bill is fraud, you don't think anyone would do that???!!!

If they do, then charge them.

delahuntv wrote: »

ID checks are for YOUR protection - it ensures someone is who they are.

I know, and I already gave a passport and was able to give one postal proof ( a report from the Irish Credit Bureau).

markiemark2005

jimmii wrote: »

Obviously faking something like that would be fraud and taking ebills just makes that easier. They are far from being exactly the same otherwise everywhere would take them as standard. I've worked a few places that look for proof of address and there are things to look for other than that the codes are correct.

What are the things you look for? Whats to stop somebody scanning a paper version, using photoshop to make some edits and then print it?

delahuntv

markiemark2005 wrote: »

I would not have applied for the finance if I did not need it, it will take at least another week to get postal versions of the bills, its a waste of time.




Utter nonsense. A driving license is difficult to fake. Aer Lingus accept a driving license as ID to board a flight.



If they do, then charge them.


I know, and I already gave a passport and was able to give one postal proof ( a report from the Irish Credit Bureau).

I'll guess you are one of three things - quite young and very inexperienced, niaeve, or just arrogant or possibly a mixture of all three.

Here's a very quick lesson - You will fail very very quickly if you don't change your attitude to basic rules and regulations. there are plenty of small new businesses out there who deserve finance and help and who will conform to the rules that are there to protect all parties.

As for your answers - here's some replies

1. Hard copy of a bill would take 2/3 days. Even if it was a week, I can't see the issue. Any other provider of finance will want the same and probably more!

2. Don't turn up at the airport without passport if you are going anywhere other than UK - even a bus pass is acceptable by aerlingus for UK travel as technically no ID is required under bilateral travel agreement between the citizens of UK & Ireland.

3. People are charged with fraudulently creating documents - some can end up in prison. Ask former TD Ivor Callelly about his forged invoices! If a tax inspection sees a forged invoice, expect 100% penalties, fine + being on a watch-list. If you have a dispute with the bank and it is found one of your documents is forged, your case would fail. However as they only accept original printed documents, that should not happen!

4. ICB Report - eh?? I can fill in any address I wish on an icb report and receive back a report stating that I have no debts or bad payments at that address. It proves nothing about that address as I could give them any address I like once I have access to the returned report! Its not even fraud as you are purely asking for a report for a named person at a set address - where the banks use this report is they cross reference the address with the hard copy of a bill, with your name on it from that address.

You've an awful lot to learn and I'd advise you to get a mentor to get you thinking a different way about rules and regualtions, cos no matter what good / great idea you have, you are set to fail with the way you are going about things.

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

I'll guess you are one of three things - quite young and very inexperienced, niaeve, or just arrogant or possibly a mixture of all three.

Here's a very quick lesson - You will fail very very quickly if you don't change your attitude to basic rules and regulations. there are plenty of small new businesses out there who deserve finance and help and who will conform to the rules that are there to protect all parties.

Excuse me, but you have no right to come out with such condescending nonsense. I made this thread to let other people know what is required to draw down funds so they can do it in a timely manner if they require it. In business there is nothing worse than expecting money by a certain date only to have it unexpectedly delayed.

As for your comment about me being "very inexperienced, niaeve, or just arrogant or possibly a mixture of all three", its my accountant who is very experienced advise to me that the documentation requirements are excessive. I am experienced enough to actually take advise from him. The reason I cannot draw down the funds is because the other director just has one bill in his name and MF require 2 proofs of address. Lets also be very clear about something else, banks have very stringent anti money laundering regulations, so if I am not who I say I am and my company is not what I say it is then clearly then banks have not verified who I am either.

I do rightly have an issue with the non acceptance of bills sent by email. They are the same as postal bills. I can scan a postal bill and edit it just as easily as I could an electronic version. For a scheme thats support business growth its wrapped up in the usual excessive paperwork and administration that in my opinion is not worth it for a small amount of money. It is your right not to agree with that, but coming out with a personalised attack is not acceptable.

delahuntv

I'm only commenting on your posts - now you add you have an accountant??!!

To me it looks like you are throwing the toys out of the pram as there is nothing you are saying that shows micro finance is overly onerous or surprising or not the norm in their field.

SO, yes, it looks like you, and your accountant, are very inexpereinced.

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

To me it looks like you are throwing the toys out of the pram as there is nothing you are saying that shows micro finance is overly onerous or surprising or not the norm in their field.

Well, considering that 6 months personal and business bank statements must be submitted with the application there is already an implicit verification of somebodies ID and address because to have bank accounts you must provide all of that.

delahuntv

all very clearly laid out on their website - no surprises, nothing onerous.




"Before you can receive the loan funds you will need to supply:
a current Tax Clearance Certificate
a certified copy of passport or driving license
two recent utility bills as proof of current permanent address"

When you check what else they need - which is quite a lot of info, and assuming that as you were approved you gave them all this, then the supply of a little but of ID of which you are informed about even before you make the application (unless you didn't read the conditions and requirements), makes your argument and dissing of them totally ridiculous.

Absolutely nothing was added at the last minute and everything required was well flagged in advance.


Lesson 2 - Read ALL terms and conditions before embarking on anything.

Lesson 3 - get a new accountant!

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

all very clearly laid out on their website - no surprises, nothing onerous.




"Before you can receive the loan funds you will need to supply:
a current Tax Clearance Certificate
a certified copy of passport or driving license
two recent utility bills as proof of current permanent address"

When you check what else they need - which is quite a lot of info, and assuming that as you were approved you gave them all this, then the supply of a little but of ID of which you are informed about even before you make the application (unless you didn't read the conditions and requirements), makes your argument and dissing of them totally ridiculous.

Absolutely nothing was added at the last minute and everything required was well flagged in advance.


Lesson 2 - Read ALL terms and conditions before embarking on anything.

Lesson 3 - get a new accountant!

I have provided proofs of address but electronic copies are not acceptable. Despite what you saying that this is valid on their part, I do not believe it is, especially considering as most people now transact all business electronically.

What they dont say on their website is that a proof of ID can not also be used as a proof of address. I you read above, you would see that the other director can only provide one paper or electronic proof of address and only has a driving license of proof of ID. He will need to get a passport in order to satisfy this, which again will take time.

As for you advise about getting a new accountant, you have no idea what you are on about.

delahuntv

markiemark2005 wrote: »

I have provided proofs of address but electronic copies are not acceptable. Despite what you saying that this is valid on their part, I do not believe it is, especially considering as most people now transact all business electronically.

What they dont say on their website is that a proof of ID can not also be used as a proof of address. I you read above, you would see that the other director can only provide one paper or electronic proof of address and only has a driving license of proof of ID. He will need to get a passport in order to satisfy this, which again will take time.

As for you advise about getting a new accountant, you have no idea what you are on about.

Electronic copies of bills are not acceptable by any finance institution at present. ANY decent accountant knows this - hence you need a new accountant who knows the basics.


Electronic bills can EASILY be doctored - original paper bills cannot.

At the end of the day you posted that MF was good but went on to say you have to jump through hoops after loan is approved and then said you refused it because you would not provided them with the basic standard ID requirements they very clearly state on their website.

Everything is put in front of you, nothing is hidden, the scheme is good and they protect themselves asking for fairly standard ID. You say your business partner doesn't have a passport - well, he should have - that's not MF fault.

You say YOU don't accept their id policy - tough. YOU don't make the rules - its for you to abide by THEIR rules!

btw - if you go for a bank loan, expect almost the same amount of requirements, even if you have already given them details before. They will ask for it again and they'll ask for passports and they'll ask for hard copy utility or similar bill!

That's how the system works - work with it, or do without the finance. Becoming angry and throwing a fit because you don't agree with something, simply doesn't wash.

Its 4k - they DON'T CARE - you adhere to the terms or go away! Plenty of deserving companies out there who will give the standard ID requirements to them.

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

Electronic copies of bills are not acceptable by any finance institution at present. ANY decent accountant knows this - hence you need a new accountant who knows the basics.

They are. The last time I opened a bank account I printed off ebills and submitted them.

delahuntv wrote: »

Electronic bills can EASILY be doctored - original paper bills cannot.

Paper bills can be doctored just as easily. All thats needed is a scanner. Ebills are exactly the same as a paper bill. FYI, I have worked on billing systems. If you want to tell me the difference between a paper bill and an ebill please do. I look forward to hearing it.

delahuntv wrote: »

At the end of the day you posted that MF was good but went on to say you have to jump through hoops after loan is approved and then said you refused it because you would not provided them with the basic standard ID requirements they very clearly state on their website.

I do think its a good scheme, I made the thread to warn people that once approved to expect some delays if you do your business electronically. Why you are deciding to give me hassle over this is something I dont understand.

delahuntv wrote: »

Everything is put in front of you, nothing is hidden, the scheme is good and they protect themselves asking for fairly standard ID. You say your business partner doesn't have a passport - well, he should have - that's not MF fault.

There is no legal requirement in Ireland to carry a passport. Also, the reality is that its a single person limited company at the moment. I am the main person and I have signed a personal guarantee in the event of default.

delahuntv wrote: »

You say YOU don't accept their id policy - tough. YOU don't make the rules - its for you to abide by THEIR rules!

I dont make the rules, but I am of the opinion that their rules are OTT. Again, a persons details are already verified when setting up bank accounts.

delahuntv wrote: »

btw - if you go for a bank loan, expect almost the same amount of requirements, even if you have already given them details before. They will ask for it again and they'll ask for passports and they'll ask for hard copy utility or similar bill!

See above, I've already printed off ebills and they were accepted.

delahuntv wrote: »

That's how the system works - work with it, or do without the finance. Becoming angry and throwing a fit because you don't agree with something, simply doesn't wash.

I am not angry or throwing a fit.

delahuntv wrote: »

Its 4k - they DON'T CARE - you adhere to the terms or go away! Plenty of deserving companies out there who will give the standard ID requirements to them.

I know they dont care, so I walked away. No big deal. As you said, its just €4k, I'll get it somewhere else this week. I just believed the PR/advertising spin that it was an initiative that was there to help business in a timely hassle free manner.

delahuntv

we'll just have to disagree - I don't see anything onerous in their requirements. Its all given to you in advance and there is nothing hidden.

That you didn't read all the terms is not their fault.

Next time read all terms and when you know you can meet those terms, then apply for whatever.

And no a passport is not required to walk down the street, but is required as ID for many many purposes and it is very advisable to get one especially if you are going to be involved in a business.

markiemark2005

delahuntv wrote: »

we'll just have to disagree - I don't see anything onerous in their requirements. Its all given to you in advance and there is nothing hidden.

That you didn't read all the terms is not their fault.

Next time read all terms and when you know you can meet those terms, then apply for whatever.

And no a passport is not required to walk down the street, but is required as ID for many many purposes and it is very advisable to get one especially if you are going to be involved in a business.

Maybe they should update their terms on and conditions to state that they wont accept electronic documents and also state that if using a driving license for proof of ID that it cannot be used for a proof of address also.

pedroeibar1

markiemark2005 wrote: »

Maybe they should update their terms on and conditions to state that they wont accept electronic documents and also state that if using a driving license for proof of ID that it cannot be used for a proof of address also.

OP you really need to wise up and move on. You have already been given good responses yet you persist with naïve comments and what comes across as a sense of entitlement. There are AML rules and loan conditions in place for borrowers from all financial institutions, no matter the size of lender, borrower or loan amount. The conditions you mention are normal and not onerous. If you want to borrow money you obey the rules. If you deal with officialdom you need the correct forms. Period.

markiemark2005

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

OP you really need to wise up and move on. You have already been given good responses yet you persist with naïve comments and what comes across as a sense of entitlement.

Replying to other comments comes across as a sense of entitlement?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There are AML rules and loan conditions in place for borrowers from all financial institutions, no matter the size of lender, borrower or loan amount. The conditions you mention are normal and not onerous. If you want to borrow money you obey the rules. If you deal with officialdom you need the correct forms. Period.

As far as I am aware, MFI is not a financial institution, but is a registered charity.

pedronomix

what a waste of time thread.... have neither of you got anything better to do with your time... that this kind of nonsense is even tolerated on here speaks volumes about the levels to which this forum has descended. The main focus on here is to be PC, schoolyard is OK as long as it can be safely described as PC!

Every body already knows the inmates are running the asylum..

pedroeibar1

markiemark2005 wrote: »

As far as I am aware, MFI is not a financial institution, but is a registered charity.

The registered charity status of MFI has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. Microfinance Ireland is a Limited Company, established under the Microenterprise Loan Fund Act 2012. In addition to the involvement of the Irish State (Entemp) it has guarantees / support from the various members of European Investment Bank Group. While it might fall outside the regulatory remit of the CBI, it would be bound (and good management practice) to follow best practice on AML and banking procedures.
You apparently think you know it all and/or want an argument so I’m not responding again.

markiemark2005

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The registered charity status of MFI has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. Microfinance Ireland is a Limited Company, established under the Microenterprise Loan Fund Act 2012. In addition to the involvement of the Irish State (Entemp) it has guarantees / support from the various members of European Investment Bank Group. While it might fall outside the regulatory remit of the CBI, it would be bound (and good management practice) to follow best practice on AML and banking procedures.
You apparently think you know it all and/or want an argument so I’m not responding again.

Its you that started the personal insults which are not helpful or required.

pedronomix

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The registered charity status of MFI has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. Microfinance Ireland is a Limited Company, established under the Microenterprise Loan Fund Act 2012. In addition to the involvement of the Irish State (Entemp) it has guarantees / support from the various members of European Investment Bank Group. While it might fall outside the regulatory remit of the CBI, it would be bound (and good management practice) to follow best practice on AML and banking procedures.
You apparently think you know it all and/or want an argument so I’m not responding again.

As St. Paul said in his letter to `The Gynaecologist'.. don't give me the labour pains, just give me the baby