Dutch Forces repatriation of 200 citizen post MH17

Muahahaha

I was watching the news earlier and how Dutch troops repatriated some 200 of their fellow citizens from the plane crash site in Ukraine. The Dutch army did a very respectful job, at least now the families of the victims know their loved ones are home and away from that hellhole they were shot down in.

Anyway I noticed that the Dutch Air Force sent down a Hercules transport plane, I forget the model number but it was a huge plane. From what I saw the Australian Air Force were also there with another huge plane to repatriate their own 70 or so bodies. I'm not sure if the Australians helped transport Dutch bodies to Holland first before going back to Ukraine to pick up their own citizens, it looked like they were helping each other on some level at least.

It all got me wondering what would happen here if we ever found ourselves in a similar position to the Dutch people with 200 bodies needing to be repatriated to Ireland ASAP. Would the IDF have trained and done drills for such a scenario; would senior officers have contingency plans in place for this type of operation, if so on who's shoulders does it lie? Is there an organisational unit within the IDF that has special responsibility for co-ordinating operations that might be described as a large scale emergency operation on foreign soil?

How about transporting 200 bodies home, how would this be achieved? I had a quick look at the transport planes of the Irish Air Force and the largest one I can see there is a Gulfsteam 3 which seems to only have space for about 20 people. There's a Beechman there too which it says is used by the Flying Doctors in Australia bit it doesn't look capable of careying many bodies and I don't think it would have the range to get all the way to Ukraine?

So would it be a matter of asking the UK for help? If so how would something like that work? Would they lend us a Hercules and if they did are the Air Corps trained & qualified to fly them? Or would this be a joint operation where they fly the plane but the IDF sends our troops on it? Or would the Irish govt instead ask the British Army to carry out the operation and deliver the bodies for handover in Baldonnell?

Another feature of today was that the Dutch forces brought all 200 bodies to one single location, a military run morgue which obviously has a very large capability to take in 200 bodies at short notice. Do the IDF have a similar facility? If not would 200 bodies coming in overload the Coroners morgue or does it have the capacity? Or would they be distributed to hospitals in the area the deceased person is from?

Finally the gruesome task of piecing together what is possibly hundreds of different body parts and matching them up with torsos. Who would do something like this, is this a job for a mortician or for the Defence Forces? Like would senior medics within the IDF be trained in how to match up body parts and limbs with the torsos and how to be certain of a definte match.

Sorry for all the questions and I know it's a macabre topic, I'm just interested to find out how the Irish State would handle such an emergency and the role our Defence Forces would play within it.

Jawgap

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a contingency plan in place for something like this already that would involve leasing in aircraft and flying the bodies to Baldonnel or maybe Shannon. Additional personnel, including some fairly specialised forensic scientists, would no doubt have to be brought in from the UK and probably US.

I had a stint in emergency planning in the UK, and the other thing to consider is morgue space, decontamination facilities, autopsy rooms, labs, family rooms, admin offices / space, canteen facilities, rest / sleeping quarters etc.

For ease of operation they should be co-located but few if any countries would have both a facility large enough with enough spare ready capacity to cope, which means you're back to temporary facilities - and I'd imagine hangars would be exceptionally useful for filling this role, but they may be hindered by lack of supplies such as water, electricity and gas as well as suitable waste discharge arrangements.

I know they'd be 'plumbed' for these but they may not have a sufficiently large supply coming in, so you may, in the case of electricity, be talking about bringing in gennies to run the aircon and refrigeration units; lab equipment etc. In the case of waste, you may have to intercept the drains and tanker everything away for proper treatment.

Morgue space is fairly easy to generate, you just need to lease in enough refrigerated trailers, or commandeer some of the large industrial freezer / cold store facilities scattered around the M50.

We had contingency arrangements in place to use schools and universities especially those with large sports halls in close proximity to their science blocks.

tac foley

The PDF - NOT the IDF [Israel Defence Force] would likely have to engage the assistance of the Irish National Airline to transport such a large number of dead back to Ireland. The government imight be unwilling to ask for the assistance of the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force, which has similar aircraft to the KLM C-130 and the C-17 of the Royal Australian Air Force, and in substantial numbers.

However, there is no other nation near enough to Ireland to help you out with this level of disaster. Nor is there any way that the RAF would allow any of your pilots -twin-engined rated only - to fly a four-engined aircraft they may never have sat in before. The RAF 'slow-jet/prop' pilot has to undergo almost a year training in the transport OCU to convert from a twin to the four-engined aircraft. It is not simply a matter of flying a bigger airplane with two more throttles. The PDF's largest aircraft is/was the twin-engined Casa used for maritime patrols.

On the other hand, I'm certain the the UK would offer all the help that might be needed - whether or not your government would accept it is another matter altogether. A certain amount of pride-swallowing would certainly be needed, although, in the face of such a disaster, all such emotions would and should be kicked into touch.

Also, AFAIK, the RoI has no equivalent to the UK Air Accident Investigation Board, based at RAE Farnborough.

Here in UK, our local area disaster plan mainy involved a fully-loaded and fuelled-up C-5 Galaxy transport crashing just after take-off on the nearby town - the WPS for that was ~1200 dead and injured, and widespread destruction of infrastructure.

However, let's think for a moment about your question for a minute - what are the chances of two hundred Irish citizens all being on one aircraft at the same time and flying over the Ukraine?

That event is extrmely unlikely, to say the least.

However, a chartered passenger jet going to, or coming back from, a pilgrimage to somewhere like Lourdes or Fatima or a great religious event such as the inaugration of a new pope is a far more-likely possibility. With this in mind, it is more likely that the initial disaster would have happened on mainland western Europe, rather then over a country at war with itsself, in which case the armed forces of the nation in which the disaster occurred are more than likely to assist, rather than having to ask the British for any help.

tac

Jawgap

Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) would be the equivalent of the UK Air Accident Investigation Board, but there's no equivalent to the RAE (only a few countries I reckon would have an organisation equivalent to RAE). In such a scenario I'd imagine RAE would be brought in to provide assistance - AAIU is an excellent organisation, but obviously limited in size.

The more likely scenario is probably one of a charter flight coming down (rather than being brought down) on the way to / from a holiday destination - meaning most likely within the EU.......but extremely unlikely whatever way you look at it. I'd imagine any help requested and provided would be done through EU structures.

The Eti-had & Emirates flights operate over Iraq and they do skirt quite close to Iran - not active war zones and extremely unlikely that one would be brought down in the same circumstances as MH17. They do avoid Syrian air space.

I don't think there'd be an issue asking the RAF to help - there is a recognition that the IAC does not possess heavy lift aircraft and there are plenty of examples of IAC / RAF co-operation especially when it comes to humanitarian type operations.

Horse84

tac foley wrote: »

The PDF - NOT the IDF [Israel Defence Force] would likely have to engage the assistance of the Irish National Airline to transport such a large number of dead back to Ireland. The government imight be unwilling to ask for the assistance of the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force, which has similar aircraft to the KLM C-130 and the C-17 of the Royal Australian Air Force, and in substantial numbers.

However, there is no other nation near enough to Ireland to help you out with this level of disaster. Nor is there any way that the RAF would allow any of your pilots -twin-engined rated only - to fly a four-engined aircraft they may never have sat in before. The RAF 'slow-jet/prop' pilot has to undergo almost a year training in the transport OCU to convert from a twin to the four-engined aircraft. It is not simply a matter of flying a bigger airplane with two more throttles. The PDF's largest aircraft is/was the twin-engined Casa used for maritime patrols.

On the other hand, I'm certain the the UK would offer all the help that might be needed - whether or not your government would accept it is another matter altogether. A certain amount of pride-swallowing would certainly be needed, although, in the face of such a disaster, all such emotions would and should be kicked into touch.

Also, AFAIK, the RoI has no equivalent to the UK Air Accident Investigation Board, based at RAE Farnborough.

Here in UK, our local area disaster plan mainy involved a fully-loaded and fuelled-up C-5 Galaxy transport crashing just after take-off on the nearby town - the WPS for that was ~1200 dead and injured, and widespread destruction of infrastructure.

However, let's think for a moment about your question for a minute - what are the chances of two hundred Irish citizens all being on one aircraft at the same time and flying over the Ukraine?

That event is extrmely unlikely, to say the least.

However, a chartered passenger jet going to, or coming back from, a pilgrimage to somewhere like Lourdes or Fatima or a great religious event such as the inaugration of a new pope is a far more-likely possibility. With this in mind, it is more likely that the initial disaster would have happened on mainland western Europe, rather then over a country at war with itsself, in which case the armed forces of the nation in which the disaster occurred are more than likely to assist, rather than having to ask the British for any help.

tac

Not sure where you're coming from with the pride swallowing from the government. This isn't the 80's. I'd be fairly confident that the country would willingly and graciously accept any and all help from the RAF if, god forbid, anything like this tragedy should happen.

The government hasn't any issue with with taking bilateral loans from the British government when the economy collapsed. There aren't any issues with RAF SAR aircraft using Irish facilities when engaged on life saving missions and vice versa.

There would never be any suggestion of Irish pilots flying heavy fixed wing RAF transports just to save face for something like this. To be honest if it came to it, it would be the last thing on anyone's mind.

tac foley

Let us hope and pray that my views are never tested.

tac

Horse84

tac foley wrote: »

Let us hope and pray that my views are never tested.

tac

The country has it's faults no doubt about it but pettiness and small mindedness in times of tragedy and loss isn't one of them.

mel.b

Muahahaha wrote: »

Finally the gruesome task of piecing together what is possibly hundreds of different body parts and matching them up with torsos. Who would do something like this, is this a job for a mortician or for the Defence Forces? Like would senior medics within the IDF be trained in how to match up body parts and limbs with the torsos and how to be certain of a definte match.

Sorry for all the questions and I know it's a macabre topic, I'm just interested to find out how the Irish State would handle such an emergency and the role our Defence Forces would play within it.

It wouldn't be a physical job of 'matching up' body parts but rather a scientific one, using DNA. Also it would be lead by specialists in diaster victim identification. They have helped identify victims in disasters such as the Boxing Day Tsumani and the Japan earthquake and Tsuamni. countries around the world have teams, however i din't know what their 'day' jobs are so to speak. I can't imagine what it would be like having to do that job

Hedgemeister

Horse84 wrote: »

The country has it's faults no doubt about it but pettiness and small mindedness in times of tragedy and loss isn't one of them.

Small-mindedness and pettiness are Irish special traits when it comes to questioning the capabilities of our military...now it's even straying into fantasy land, with the 'what if's'...


Reminds me of what one (idiot) TD said in Dail Eireann in 1960 when the question of how our first troops were going to get to the Congo from Dublin...
Well...this gentleman is on the Dail Record as saying, 'as long as they don't travel there on British Military Aircraft, I don't care how they get there!'
That very same old anti-brit attitude is alive and well today.

Sometimes I despair of 'Paddy.' It seems he'll never grow up...or Ireland as a Nation.

We simply don't have the manpower, planes, ships...etc etc because our Government, and past Governments (in their collective wisdom) never invested more than pennies defence. This isn't the fault of the individual soldier, sailor or Airman. I'm sure the Aer Corps would love to have those giant planes...the Navy a few bigger ships, etc, etc, but it'll never happen.
Got to make do with what we got.

In 1978 I arrived (with 4 other MPs) at UNIFIL HQ Lebanon to take up our Posts with the UNMP. We were sent with 'the best' equipment mother Ireland saw fit to give us...WW1 British Army webbing... second hand eastern European (Hungarian I think) one size fits all steel helmets (bought in 1972 by Paddy Donegan in a job lot) an antique Swedish SMG and vintage 9mm Browning pistol, a back-pack of tinned food (with one tin opener) donated by some business or other...I can't remember who it was, but we were grateful for it.
As I've said before on this subject, we looked like film-extras from a cheap 1930s war movie. We Irish were by far the worst dressed, worst equipped and the worst armed personnel in the Unit...but we were the best trained.

Horse84

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Small-mindedness and pettiness are Irish special traits when it comes to questioning the capabilities of our military...now it's even straying into fantasy land, with the 'what if's'...


Reminds me of what one (idiot) TD said in Dail Eireann in 1960 when the question of how our first troops were going to get to the Congo from Dublin...
Well...this gentleman is on the Dail Record as saying, 'as long as they don't travel there on British Military Aircraft, I don't care how they get there!'
That very same old anti-brit attitude is alive and well today.

Sometimes I despair of 'Paddy.' It seems he'll never grow up...or Ireland as a Nation.

We simply don't have the manpower, planes, ships...etc etc because our Government, and past Governments (in their collective wisdom) never invested more than pennies defence. This isn't the fault of the individual soldier, sailor or Airman. I'm sure the Aer Corps would love to have those giant planes...the Navy a few bigger ships, etc, etc, but it'll never happen.
Got to make do with what we got.

In 1978 I arrived (with 4 other MPs) at UNIFIL HQ Lebanon to take up our Posts with the UNMP. We were sent with 'the best' equipment mother Ireland saw fit to give us...WW1 British Army webbing... second hand eastern European (Hungarian I think) one size fits all steel helmets (bought in 1972 by Paddy Donegan in a job lot) an antique Swedish SMG and vintage 9mm Browning pistol, a back-pack of tinned food (with one tin opener) donated by some business or other...I can't remember who it was, but we were grateful for it.
As I've said before on this subject, we looked like film-extras from a cheap 1930s war movie. We Irish were by far the worst dressed, worst equipped and the worst armed personnel in the Unit...but we were the best trained.

As I've said before this is not the 1980's. I share your bitterness.My mam's uncle died in the Congo in 61 I'm well aware of the condition of the equipment issued, nothing short of disgraceful.
We are talking about a completely different potential scenario today.

Jawgap

Britannia Royal Naval College has been training INS officers for nearly 70 years.....IAC have a history of cooperation with the RAF going back even longer....and in more recent times haven't there been some joint training carried out in Belize?

Hedgemeister

Horse84 wrote: »

As I've said before this is not the 1980's. I share your bitterness.My mam's uncle died in the Congo in 61 I'm well aware of the condition of the equipment issued, nothing short of disgraceful.
We are talking about a completely different potential scenario today.

Apologies for the rant.
Not bitterness, but hindsight and a bit of despair for the future thrown in.

sparky42

Jawgap wrote: »

Britannia Royal Naval College has been training INS officers for nearly 70 years.....IAC have a history of cooperation with the RAF going back even longer....and in more recent times haven't there been some joint training carried out in Belize?

Not too mention the joint work in Mali with the Royal Irish.

If good forbid something like this ever did happen, I have no doubt that the UK's help would be accepted (sure some cough shiners cough) would moan but they'll moan about anything.

Jawgap

sparky42 wrote: »

Not too mention the joint work in Mali with the Royal Irish.

If good forbid something like this ever did happen, I have no doubt that the UK's help would be accepted (sure some cough shiners cough) would moan but they'll moan about anything.

They'll be bursting blood vessels this week.....:D

British royal to attend unveiling of Cross of Sacrifice in Glasnevin Cemetery

The ceremony, which begins at 12.30 and is open to the public, will be attended by Heather Humphreys, Minster for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht; Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland; Dominick Chilcott, the British Ambassador to Ireland; John Green, chairman of the Glasnevin Trust; and its chief executive, George McCullough.

Present also will be a colour party from both the Defence Forces and the British Armed Forces.

Manic Moran

Would not the response to the Air India incident provide an indicator?

sparky42

Manic Moran wrote: »

Would not the response to the Air India incident provide an indicator?

To the investigation probably, to the transportation not really.

weisses

In fairness, Ireland doesn't have the population to justify a Big well equipped army, with well equipped i mean that they can deal with any scenario.

UN or NATO could play a role as well in an Irish situation ... Or they could just charter some Big cargo planes