Succession planning

frazzledhome

Reading thread re. Site for sibling, I had to ask what level of planning goes into succession or is it done on an adhoc basis.

We all know of the cases where it has gone horribly wrong. I thought reading that thread that very little planning goes on. I think this is a threat to Irish agriculture and family relations.

In our case the last generation had it sorted before any rows could brew and all family were informed and involved. I've seen cases where siblings arrive looking for their share but aren't willing to share the debt burden that's associated with the farm business and carried by the farming successor

I didn't want to derail the site thread and posted this thread out of interest

Greengrass1

All done and dusted here. Everyone knows what's happening and who's doing what.

AntrimGlens

Four siblings here, two boys, two girls. All done with everyones input and no-one feels shafted, unlike previous generation where they continue to "tell my father that he was given everything" the bit they forget was that they were all given an education and he's the one they come to when they need a 'handout'.

One of the rural development schemes here had a succession planning programme where families could all sit down with an advisor and look at the future and what they wanted to do, they got £250 towards any legal fees for drawing up wills/getting legal advice or tax planning. It wasn't overly well subscribed tbh, i think many families were probably reluctant to bring in a stranger to lay open their families to scrutiny or questionning.

Charliebull

was all done here 10 years ago, everyone knew what was happening and was all agreed

IMO its the only way to do it,

Timmaay

Unfortunately not all fixed down yet here. But progress being made at least, slowly but surely. And I've seen 1st hand how what appear to be trivial matters can result in irrational feuds between family members, it never ends well.

exercise is the antidote

[quote="frazzledhome;I've seen cases where siblings arrive looking for their share but aren't willing to share the debt burden that's associated with the farm business and carried by the farming successor
[/quote]

Can you give an example of this frazzled?

whelan2

i think its a terrible act to not leave a will. I know none of us know when we are going to die but the hurt, rows and heart ache for a grieving family is awful. At least if all has been worked out beforehand everyone knows where they stand

Charliebull

whelan2 wrote: »

i think its a terrible act to not leave a will. I know none of us know when we are going to die but the hurt, rows and heart ache for a grieving family is awful. At least if all has been worked out beforehand everyone knows where they stand

very true, but has everyone on here done their will yet

i have not but I need to get it sorted

Greengrass1

whelan2 wrote: »

i think its a terrible act to not leave a will. I know none of us know when we are going to die but the hurt, rows and heart ache for a grieving family is awful. At least if all has been worked out beforehand everyone knows where they stand

Very true. My father was given nothing had to buy the first farm. He doesn't want that to happen to me or my sisters.

whelan2

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Very true. My father was given nothing had to buy the first farm. He doesn't want that to happen to me or my sisters.

sure if things where not sorted here and my dad died, i would have been last to get the farm, have 2 older sisters and 2 brothers, none of whom have any interest in farm. Thankfully my dad is still alive but everything is sorted

lakill Farm

Its shocking going around from client to client and hearing stories relating to transfer of farms, houses, monies and investments etc.

best sit down and make a plan. Throw the cards on the table because when the current owners of the assets are alive and in "capable mind" its the best time. 2 examples.

One side of my family, nice diary farm, little enough borrowings and was transferred to one son and the farmhouse to a daughter. a few others of the family got sites. My dad didnt get a site but was offered. The full family would do anything for each other and never one word about it.

other side, my mothers. They fell out over a house worth small money and with the will made and everyone fully understanding of the situation. Fell out over money then, again was approx 40k and then fell out over a graveyard plot. absolute shower of hoares. Honest to god if they were farm animals you would have gifted them to Larry and co

whelan2

i know a family the husband left everything to the wife, there where 5 kids. He wasnt even cold in the grave and the rows started bullying her that they wanted their share, pure sickening for the poor woman

mf240

Its all grand giving a site to a sibling untill there marriage breaks down and you end up with stragers living on your doorstep.

A farm should go to the farmer its not a meal ticket for all and sundry.

exercise is the antidote

mf240 wrote: »

Its all grand giving a site to a sibling untill there marriage breaks down and you end up with stragers living on your doorstep.

A farm should go to the farmer its not a meal ticket for all and sundry.

Is there not some sort of contract you could do up stating that the house/land be giving back to the farmer if anything happens?! Although that might not appeal to your brother/sister

lakill Farm

mf240 wrote: »

Its all grand giving a site to a sibling untill there marriage breaks down and you end up with stragers living on your doorstep.

A farm should go to the farmer its not a meal ticket for all and sundry.

it could equally happen the farm goes to the farmer and he sells it and the sibling is really hard done by just getting a site

No farmer has a good given entitlement to just get it.

Farrell

Sadly this happens everywhere, we all know of cases where greed takes over.
My Grandparents on both sides had made everyone aware of how things were to be divided & everyone respected their wishes.
But heard of cases where everyone were always made aware but not put on paper, some were honourable & others contested for it all to be sold off.

I've being meaning to do one myself (always tomorrow - sadly), if my wife was to survive me, hopefully the pensions & insurance might help, but rather the upbringing of our son, if both of us were to be taken, to me is far more important.

lakill Farm

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

Is there not some sort of contract you could do up stating that the house/land be giving back to the farmer if anything happens?! Although that might not appeal to your brother/sister

Im not sure but what farmer would buy back 1/2 acre with house for 200k plus at market value?

Charliebull

Farrell wrote: »

Sadly this happens everywhere, we all know of cases where greed takes over.
My Grandparents on both sides had made everyone aware of how things were to be divided & everyone respected their wishes.
But heard of cases where everyone were always made aware but not put on paper, some were honourable & others contested for it all to be sold off.

I've being meaning to do one myself (always tomorrow - sadly), if my wife was to survive me, hopefully the pensions & insurance might help, but rather the upbringing of our son, if both of us were to be taken, to me is far more important.

yes the kids upbringing is one that we have discussed and its hard to call

Base price

I think it is imperative that everyone makes a will. Most solicitors fees are reasonable unless the will is complex.
My mother discussed her intentions some years ago with my brothers, sister and I (prior to her making her latest will) as she did not want any arguments after her time.
I too have made a will and discussed it with my sons.
I reckon as the generations roll by people are more inclined to make a will and discuss their wishes openly with family members.

moy83

I have a will made , the solicitor did for free when I was doing something else (not that I'll be leaving much ) I have 2 sisters and one brother and the father gave a house to a brother and a sister and the other sister doesnt want anything and definitely doesnt want to live on a farm . He was signing over the farm to me last year but I didn't take it at the time , I would nearly be as happy at this stage if it went to one of my sons if they were interested in making a life on the farm at a young age .
My grandfather gave everything to my father and got the rest of them to sign something at the time to say that was final . But lo and behold one of them has started beaking about "his right " to a site lately after he married a scumbag thats telling him he should get one regardless of what he signed years ago .

RightTurnClyde

As a matter of interest is there a point when siblings no longer have a claim to a portion of the farm. Say all the children get educated and go off a get jobs, then the place is left to one of them and that person works away for x number of years. Is there a point when the person who got the place has it long enough that the others can't say they'd like a bit of the action. ???

Base price

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

As a matter of interest is there a point when siblings no longer have a claim to a portion of the farm. Say all the children get educated and go off a get jobs, then the place is left to one of them and that person works away for x number of years. Is there a point when the person who got the place has it long enough that the others can't say they'd like a bit of the action. ???

AS far as I know (but stand corrected) a person has 6 years to contest a will. After that they cannot do so.
So in the case you mentioned once 6 years has elapsed they cannot come looking for some of the action.
Just had a quick google search and came across this http://www.probate.ie/overview.html
According to the link a child has only 6 months after the death of the parent. I do not know if they mean a child is a minor or not.

larrymiller

Base price wrote: »

AS far as I know (but stand corrected) a person has 6 years to contest a will. After that they cannot do so.
So in the case you mentioned once 6 years has elapsed they cannot come looking for some of the action.
Just had a quick google search and came across this http://www.probate.ie/overview.html
According to the link a child has only 6 months after the death of the parent. I do not know if they mean a child is a minor or not.

Out of curiosity what right would anyone have to contest the will? Is it not set in stone?

whelan2

larrymiller wrote: »

Out of curiosity what right would anyone have to contest the will? Is it not set in stone?

would 1 reason not be that the person who died wasnt of sound mind?

moy83

larrymiller wrote: »

Out of curiosity what right would anyone have to contest the will? Is it not set in stone?

Its been known for people to feel entitled to compensation for working on the farm

RightTurnClyde

... And there's something there to say that all offspring have to be provided for in some way. So for example if one of the children gets F'ed out on their ear and ends up falling on tough times, and the other child gets everything, the one that got nothing can contest things ( I think). It can be contested if there's complete disregard shown to one child.eg no education.

moy83

When I'm reading this I'm thinking there is alot to be said for selling up and retiring to spain .
Is there anyone planning on doing that ?

Mulumpy

moy83 wrote: »

When I'm reading this I'm thinking there is alot to be said for selling up and retiring to spain .
IsIthere anyone planning on doing that ?

For one I wont be letting my kids near a farming career until they have a decent education and alternative qualification got.

RightTurnClyde

moy83 wrote: »

When I'm reading this I'm thinking there is alot to be said for selling up and retiring to spain .
Is there anyone planning on doing that ?

The kids will be encouraged to get a good non agri education and then told to F off and do some traveling... and then sell the place while their gone.... I'll leave them a forwarding address

exercise is the antidote

I worked for a fella who's dad told him no no farming..He eventually got the farm from his mother. As father passed early! Could of saved him a lot of hassle.. He has near 200 cows now and is a very good farmer.
If the next generation wants to farm leave them at it and don't be so pig headed! No offensive to any1 on this thread just stating it! Not everyone's idea of good life is travelling and working in a office!

freedominacup

larrymiller wrote: »

Out of curiosity what right would anyone have to contest the will? Is it not set in stone?

As the bil says wills mean very little until you have the deeds in your hand. They are contested all the time.

Charliebull

Isn't a spouse ie husband or wife entitled to a percentage of their partners estate regardless of what a will says

5live

Charliebull wrote: »

Isn't a spouse ie husband or wife entitled to a percentage of their partners estate regardless of what a will says

If the owner dies without a will, the spouse gets a third and the kids two thirds divided between them.

Miname

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

I worked for a fella who's dad told him no no farming..He eventually got the farm from his mother. As father passed early! Could of saved him a lot of hassle.. He has near 200 cows now and is a very good farmer.
If the next generation wants to farm leave them at it and don't be so pig headed! No offensive to any1 on this thread just stating it! Not everyone's idea of good life is travelling and working in a office!

Its not about working in an office, its about someone getting a perspective outside of the small fish bowl that is a farm. Every young lad or lassie should be encouraged to go out and learn different aspects of life and different people who they mightnt run into in the the confines of a life on the home farm. broaden their horizons and if they want back on the farm then let them.

exercise is the antidote

Miname wrote: »

Its not about working in an office, its about someone getting a perspective outside of the small fish bowl that is a farm. Every young lad or lassie should be encouraged to go out and learn different aspects of life and different people who they mightnt run into in the the confines of a life on the home farm. broaden their horizons and if they want back on the farm then let them.

Totally agree if that what the person wants!

Miname

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

Totally agree if that what the person wants!

The problem is if most kids get the option of farming they will pick it without trying out some of lifes alternatives.

Farmer Pudsey

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

As a matter of interest is there a point when siblings no longer have a claim to a portion of the farm. Say all the children get educated and go off a get jobs, then the place is left to one of them and that person works away for x number of years. Is there a point when the person who got the place has it long enough that the others can't say they'd like a bit of the action. ???

Minors or Childern still in Education still have a right of claim. A adult child with special needs also has to be provided for. However after that you can do what you like with your money. The only other provisio is where you keep a son or daughter or rela at home to work the farm .

People have tried to contest will where ir was left to cats and dogs homes and failed.

larrymiller wrote: »

Out of curiosity what right would anyone have to contest the will? Is it not set in stone?

Se above

Charliebull wrote: »

Isn't a spouse ie husband or wife entitled to a percentage of their partners estate regardless of what a will says

5live wrote: »

If the owner dies without a will, the spouse gets a third and the kids two thirds divided between them.

The position re a spouse or civil partner if no will spouse is entitled to 2/3 of estate with 1/3 divided between childern. In the case of a will a spouse is entitled to a minimun of 1/3 of the estate if no childern they are enititled to half of the estate. Adult Childern who are educated have no claim, unless they are dependent on the person generally this is considered if in education (with an age limit of 25 I think I saw somewhere) or special needs adult child.

By the way I am not stating this as gospel it is my understanding, get a legal opinion to be sure.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/the_deceaseds_estate/what_happens_the_deceaseds_estate.html

5live

lakill Farm wrote: »

it could equally happen the farm goes to the farmer and he sells it and the sibling is really hard done by just getting a site

No farmer has a good given entitlement to just get it.

I agree with the above up to a point. The children who work on the farm should have an entitlement to a portion of the farm value while those that didn't shouldn't have any claim.

An adult living on the farm but not contributing in any way should have the same entitlement to a share of the farm as the adult living next door to a factory when it is sold. Absolutely none.

We have wills and living wills done with a while and probably need updating but the only stipulation in the wills are rights of residence in the family home until they marry and provision for education until they are 25. The family home will be transferred to who ever gets the farm. No sites because of huge difficulties in farming with non relatives living on the bounds of the farm with dogs, rubbish and fences destroyed. If/when the rest get married/buy houses we will contribute to the purchase from our own funds, not the farm funds.

To our thinking, the farm is a means to produce an income and not valuable in itself as it will not be sold unless the next generation wants to sell, which i will have no issue with, as i am only holding the farm in trust for the next generation.

EamonKilkenny

We were always made clear from an early age what was happening and it has been brought up over the years to make sure that everything is fresh in everyone's mind and there would be no secrets. I think this is hugely important. I know it must be a massive deal for any man or woman to hand over land that they have worked so hard to buy, improve or carry for the next generation.
One thing regarding sites, I'd be very much in favour of having family around. Two of my brothers have houses and families on the farm and I'm glad of there company and help when needed. No one gets married with the intention of getting divorced and selling the house but if it happens that's life and we will have to deal with it, I'm just glad to have the opportunity to farm the rest of farm.