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too old for apprentice??
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21-07-2014 12:42am#1
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 12338
As someone who has completed a degree and nearly finished a masters in electronic engineering it would be worth looking over my previous posts in this forum to see the non relevance of either to being an electrician.
I agree that the training received during an electrical engineering degree is very different to that of an electrical apprenticeship. However to suggest that the training an electrician has as irrelevant to electrical engineering is bizzar to say the least. I can think of many examples that an engineer can benifit from the training and experience of an electrician.
IMHO the best electrical engineers are often those that are also qualified electricians. This is because they have a better ability to see design issues due to their superior understanding of how an electrical design is turned into a reality.
Increasing numbers of electricians are returning to college to do electrical engineering degrees. These individuals get snapped up by employers rapidly. There is a reason for this.You can't wire a plug with a calculator.
Correct and a 240 sq. cable has a large bending radius but this seems to be lost on some electrical engineers due to a lack of practical experience
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I agree that the training received during an electrical engineering degree is very different to that of an electrical apprenticeship. However to suggest that the training an electrician has as irrelevant to electrical engineering is bizzar to say the least. I can think of many examples that an engineer can benifit from the training and experience of an electrician.
IMHO the best electrical engineers are often those that are also qualified electricians. This is because they have a better ability to see design issues due to their superior understanding of how an electrical design is turned into a reality.
Increasing numbers of electricians are returning to college to do electrical engineering degrees. These individuals get snapped up by employers rapidly. There is a reason for this.
Correct and a 240 sq. cable has a large bending radius but this seems to be lost on some electrical engineers due to a lack of practical experience
I'm suggesting the stuff thought to electrical engineers is irrelevant to anyone wanting to be an electrician for the most part, not the other way around. Engineers can walk out with a first in their masters and genuinely not know what colour wires are in a plug.0 -
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12338
I'm a student but I have some industry experience. When I approached the company I worked with they looked at my CV, briefly read over my academic history then spoke in depth about my practical experience gained outside of college.
Fair enough.
I am speaking from experience of working on large projects in the pharmaceutical and semiconductor industry. In my opinion an electrician's training and experience is very relevant to the role of an electrical engineer.
A few examples of where I have found this experience being advantageous include:
1) When writing / reviewing SOW (Scope Of Work) documentation.
2) When attending FATs (Factory Acceptance Tests), SATs (Site Acceptance Tests) and witnessing various electrical tests.
3) During plant commissioning / start up.
4) At site meetings with E & I contractors, it helps to interpret their requirements and explain your design. It is also harder for them to pull the wool over your eyes
5) When designing MCC, PLC, control Panels and reviewing same.
6) For general familiarity with ET101 / ET105 and having a good understanding of normal methods of installation.
7) During TBA (Tender Bid Analysis).
8) During System walkdowns and package sign off.
9) When reviewing handover packages.
10) When scheduling a project.
11) Project planning, coordination and scheduling.
12) Generating SLDs (Single Line Diagrams), instrument loop drawings, schematics etc.
13) Writing SOPs.
14) Generating and reviewing test documentation.
15) Designing, understanding and testing hard and soft interlocks.
16) A graduate engineer who is also a qualified electrician is already "site wise".
I could go on, but I guess you get the picture
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12338
You realise you're trying to convince me of a point I'm already in agreement with?!
Really ??
I was responding to this, in particular to the part I put in bold:As someone who has completed a degree and nearly finished a masters in electronic engineering it would be worth looking over my previous posts in this forum to see the non relevance of either to being an electrician. You can't wire a plug with a calculator.
My understanding from the above comment that you made (perhaps incorrect) was that your position was that an electrician's experience was not relevant to electrical engineering
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12338
No, what I meant was that even with all I've studied almost none was relevant to working as an electrician which is what the op wants to do. My previous posts on this forum will back up that I have no idea when it comes electricians work!
Fair enough, I misread your post
I think the suggestion was to study engineering instead of becoming an electrician.0 -
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Cuz all your doing is pulling in SWA's?
I've only ever been with small companies so on the one hand I'm rubbish at conduit and trunking having hardly ever done it, on the other I got loads of attention and training, 1 to 1's with my foremen and fellow sparks and was allowed to get involved in the actual wiring and connecting of things from very early in my apprenticeship, rather than just being a cable monkey or a steel worker. Or worse, a shop runner!0 -
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IMHO the best electrical engineers are often those that are also qualified electricians. This is because they have a better ability to see design issues due to their superior understanding of how an electrical design is turned into a reality.
Increasing numbers of electricians are returning to college to do electrical engineering degrees. These individuals get snapped up by employers rapidly. There is a reason for this.
I don't agree with this at all to be honest, they might be snapped up in limited areas but not over all. Snapped up is inaccurate IMHO. Many are older guys and have more experience, but compare say two 35 year old engineers went down two different paths.
I don't agree that the best engineers are electricians, although I've met some excellent ones. I have a particular reason for this to be honest and it relates to a couple of degrees that I don't think cover enough to create a great engineer.
I think it comes down to the individual, there are advantages and disadvantages to both, I always find that electrician/engineers overestimate huge areas of their experience, and at the same time underestimate huge areas of their skill set.
This idea that electricians see designs before others is often put to me, I agree in part, they see some areas of the design coming together faster, but they miss other ones areas consistently. From a cost effectiveness point of view they are light. They over rely on how they did things, remain loyal to unnecessary waste and practice, talk/think too much about the doing and the difficulties of same, instead of realising that that is the electricians job now, they have great conversations with the electricians about his job and forget that the electrician is an expert in his field and the engineer needs other skills.
Also nearly every electrician/engineer I know thinks electrician/engineers make the best engineers. I think they sit an exam on it, and most do pretty well on it:D, Also most electricians think electrician/engineers are the best too, so all joking aside there must be something to it, but its generally due to how well both individuals communicate, but the engineer does not need to know everything an electrician does they are different jobs, you don't need to waste your intellect over thinking about how someone else is going to do their job at the expense of your own.
But at the end of the day a good guy is a good guy, when it comes to engineering you can't beat intellect IMHO, experience can be gained. If someone gets an A, B or a C in higher maths in the leaving cert + 400 points (three years added to Junior cert) and then goes to UCD for 4 years to get a level 8 degree that would be considered to be a very good starting point IMO and possibly the best.
Contrast that to someone scrapping a junior cert, the min requirements for a trade and spending 4 years serving their time, 2 years in college to get a narrow scope degree, you have a different type of starting point, and only truly useful in the services sector (excellent if that is what you want to do and most older guys know what they want to do and don't need the range of subject), The UCD grad can move into far more areas, a lot of areas that are "nicer" than the construction service industry.
Most engineers who think otherwise in the ROI, didn't go to the highest rated University straight from a great leaving cert, but they think their path was the best. Once again this is just my view, and I know plenty of excellent exceptions to it.
Look at how little some electrical engineers know about mechanical engineering. This is the engineers true value IMHO. Coordinating and designing M&E work, not just electrical but the efficiency of the design how the services really come together.
Building services engineers have elec and mec training, they can really see a design coming together, not just the electrical side of things, but the chillers, AHUs, generators, CHPs.
Seeing a design coming together is more than just seeing the electrical design coming together, it goes beyond knowing the bend radius on a 4C x300.sq.mm SWA, there should be plenty of electricians on the site who know that already, the real question is why is that a 4C x300.sq.mm SWA is it for a chiller, is it sized correctly, would a 4C x240.sq.mm SWA be sufficient can you prove it, or are we just being safe?
Yes there are plenty top electricians, late developers, the leaving cert is flawed, really smart guys enter apprenticeships, guys with honors maths who did an apprenticeship (I know many) but at the end of the day if some institutes are knocking out Level 7 degrees with narrow scopes and high pass rates in two years to guys with no leaving cert, offering people the first year off and a degree in two years. You have to question the process, if so many get through it.
The maths on some of the final years of these courses in not far off being equivalent to higher Level leaving certificate IMHO. They might say it is higher but I've questioned a good few people who did it.
Again plenty of electricians completed a top leaving certs went to UCD for 4 years too, would I agree that these are the best graduates, Yes I would, simply because they added the best engineering degree to the trade, not the other way around.
I haven't met many, but I know a few, I assume most understandably want to do it in 3 years compared to 4 with an easier syllabus. Contrast that to the guys knowing the sector they want to work in, they do not need the range of subjects? possibly not, does it make them the best by not doing them?
Adding any engineering degree to a Trade does not make the best engineer. Adding a trade to the best engineering degree possibly would, it would definitely be a huge benefit.
I don't want to generate an emotional response, but the above can and does happen.
I didn't take any of the above paths, and I wouldn't advise or discuss my route either.
Also part time qualifications are not as good either IMHO unless to have a technical job already and just need the piece of paper, you do far more in full time education and get a better rounded education.
All that said at 31 would I start to serve my time? no I wouldn't. I'd try for engineering and getting a part time technical job somewhere. I agree that older lads take college more seriously when they are serving their time, but they are not always the best on site, tech suits them. Unless the apprenticeship was with a company that relied on lighter work I don't know if being a third year at 34 would be a good thing or not, being an electrician at 35 sounds good though, particularly if you wanted to go to Australia.
superg's advice on the E&I apprenticeship if you could get one is very good IMHO.
The past record that I've noticed is that older guys do better in college but can suffer on site, so maybe the 100% college option for a 31 year old is the best one on past form.
The best apprentices I've know all had their leaving cert, it certainly helps, particularly the maths.
I know the above might seem harsh, I don't mean it to be, I've not given any advice on how I got to where I am or how I did it, I would do things differently if I could, in many ways.
One thing I'd always be wary of people telling you to do what they did, its a kind of self vindication process that we should park when offering advice IMHO, again I have not aimed this at anyone, its general statement.
Sorry for the rant, but I hope it helps you0 -
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Dufftronic wrote: »A very well thought out response Stoner but I'd like to give OP another side. I wouldn't quite call this response a rebuttal but not all electricians work on building sites. I never did. I've never chased a wall, pulled mile after mile of cable or anything of the sort. I didn't become a spark to get my hands dirty :-)
I have worked as a maintenance electrician on a lot of inverters, resolvers, I/O cards, encoders, motors, gearboxes, plc's, telegram data, robotics etc. While I realise that site work is the norm for most apprentices, there are other options out there.
Regardless, life is too short to be in a job you hate. Get out and get something new.
Fair play to you Dufftronic, I largely agree with you, 2011 and I are back being friends now too it was touch and go. Its a discussion forum and we should all give the best advice we can. 0 -
Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12338
I don't agree that the best engineers are electricians, although I've met some excellent ones.
Not all of the best are, but quite a few are.
My main point is that being an electrician is an advantage for an electrical engineer, but obviously not a prerequisite.
Any electrical apprentice that has gone to college in DIT have most likely been taught by or come in contact engineers that are first and foremost electricians. Many of these lectures have chartership status, a level 9 and are on the ETCI council. I can also think of quite a few highly regarded senior engineers in consultancies that started life as electricians (as can you).I have a particular reason for this to be honest and it relates to a couple of degrees that I don't think cover enough to create a great engineer.
I know what you are talking about, and I agree.
There are a number of courses that are aimed at providing electricians with a simple course, with almost no maths in shortest possible timeframe.This idea that electricians see designs before others is often put to me, I agree in part, they see some areas of the design coming together faster, but they miss other ones areas consistently.
What areas do they miss?They over rely on how they did things, remain loyal to unnecessary waste and practice, talk/think too much about the doing and the difficulties of same, instead of realising that that is the electricians job now, they have great conversations with the electricians about his job and forget that the electrician is an expert in his field and the engineer needs other skills.
As you said above, this comes down to the individual.the engineer does not need to know everything an electrician does they are different jobs, you don't need to waste your intellect over thinking about how someone else is going to do their job at the expense of your own.
This is where I disagree.
During tender negation would you not accept that there are some electrical contractors that may be tempted to try to pull the wool over the eyes of an engineering consultancy?
Have you never seen an engineer get confused by an RFI?
In general would you think electrical engineers:
1) Are familiar with test methods?
2) Are familiar with electrical test equipment?
3) Are they entirely familiar with the paperwork that they sign off at a FAT or SAT?
I could tell you a few stories ....
Be honestIf someone gets an A, B or a C in higher maths in the leaving cert + 400 points (three years added to Junior cert) and then goes to UCD for 4 years to get a level 8 degree that would be considered to be a very good starting point IMO and possibly the best.
I agree.
But many due to personal circumstances, immaturity or it was just something that they always wanted serve their time as an electrician. Some of these individuals have enough points in their leaving cert to study medicine but they opt to become an electrician.
Years later when circumstances change, they get burnt out, or bored or due to unemployed ever increasing numbers are returning to college and enrol in various engineering courses. As you have alluded to some of these courses are pretty useless, although I accept that.Contrast that to someone scrapping a junior cert, the min requirements for a trade and spending 4 years serving their time, 2 years in college to get a narrow scope degree, you have a different type of starting point, and only truly useful in the services sector (excellent if that is what you want to do and most older guys know what they want to do and don't need the range of subject), The UCD grad can move into far more areas, a lot of areas that are "nicer" than the construction service industry.
Yes, very true.
But why not compare your level 8 UCD graduate with +400 points in the leaving cert to a qualified electrician with 5 years industrial experience, +400 points in the leaving cert and a level 8 UCD?
Of the engineers that I know that are also qualified electricians are all employed. They also have a few other things in common, they were excellent apprentices (apprentice of the year in one case), their degrees are not "narrow scope", they have completed a number of other courses before their primary degree and in general they enjoy what they do.
Agree 100% with the rest of your post (so I won't bother quoting it all), but it has almost nothing to do with my point
However this is the exception, so I will quote this as it summarises my position perfectly:Adding any engineering degree to a Trade does not make the best engineer. Adding a trade to the best engineering degree possibly would, it would definitely be a huge benefit.0 -
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