Bank forged signature

honeybuns

I have a question regarding insurance. It has come to my attention recently that my bank forged my signature on my mortgage protection policy 7 years ago. I have been paying the premiums all this time. Has anyone else come across this or know of anyone who has had this happen to them and what was outcome of it. Bank and provider know at present and are holding investigations. Any advice would be great.

Nervous Wreck

If it comes to light that someone in the bank definitely forged your signature, they'll refund you and it would be hugely surprising if they didn't also offer compensation. Did someone admit to wrong doing?

honeybuns

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

If it comes to light that someone in the bank definitely forged your signature, they'll refund you and it would be hugely surprising if they didn't also offer compensation. Did someone admit to wrong doing?

No one has admitted but it was the official that sold us our mortgage. No offer made as yet both bank and provider are doing investigations so may way and see. Was just wondering has anyone else been thru this

MammaZita

I've heard of this happening. Obviously forgery is illegal and has its consequences for the individual involved.

However there will be an argument that this was done in your interest so as not to hold up mortgage drawdown etc. Also you would have received a policy document when the policy was taken out, see the DD going out every month for the last 7 years, so have had both the benefit of the policy as well as ample opportunity to cancel it over the term.

Spocker

MammaZita wrote: »

However there will be an argument that this was done in your interest so as not to hold up mortgage drawdown etc. Also you would have received a policy document when the policy was taken out, see the DD going out every month for the last 7 years, so have had both the benefit of the policy as well as ample opportunity to cancel it over the term.

This is poor advice. The OP may not have seen an individual payment for the insurance, it was likely bundled into the single debit including the mortgage,

Forgery is forgery, and the bank (by implication that it's own employee forged the signature) is fully liable for a refund of the premia (?) paid, and as Nervous Wreck said, some compensation would be in order too.

MammaZita

Spocker wrote: »

This is poor advice. The OP may not have seen an individual payment for the insurance, it was likely bundled into the single debit including the mortgage,

Forgery is forgery, and the bank (by implication that it's own employee forged the signature) is fully liable for a refund of the premia (?) paid, and as Nervous Wreck said, some compensation would be in order too.

I wasn't giving advice I was simply saying that the bank may offer this as a (totally unacceptable) counter argument.

Life assurance is a requirement on a mortgage on your dwelling home. Had the OP arranged his / her own lifecover which he/she neglected to assign to the bank?

It would be highly unusual that this would be a single DD especially as the OP has said it was a different provider (for whom the bank was likely an agent, tied or otherwise).

Of course the bank will refund, with interest, offer nominal compensation and very likely get the OP to sign a confidentiality letter.

BazzaDP

honeybuns wrote: »

It has come to my attention recently that my bank forged my signature on my mortgage protection policy 7 years ago.

That's quite a bold statement to make. What are you basing this on? The fact you can't remember signing up for it? Or do you have a copy of the application and it's definitely not your signature? How to handle will depend on your answer to that.

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

I wasn't giving advice I was simply saying that the bank may offer this as a (totally unacceptable) counter argument.

Life assurance is a requirement on a mortgage on your dwelling home. Had the OP arranged his / her own lifecover which he/she neglected to assign to the bank?

It would be highly unusual that this would be a single DD especially as the OP has said it was a different provider (for whom the bank was likely an agent, tied or otherwise).

Of course the bank will refund, with interest, offer nominal compensation and very likely get the OP to sign a confidentiality letter.

Single payment 1 dd comes out. I had been questioning the benefits of the policy as I had no copy documents this is how it came about. I requested a copy of what we signed. And if course we had not signed.

MammaZita

honeybuns wrote: »

Single payment 1 dd comes out. I had been questioning the benefits of the policy as I had no copy documents this is how it came about. I requested a copy of what we signed. And if course we had not signed.

And did it not cross your mind that you had a mortgsge but no life assurance? Or we're you aware you had a policy in place?

Did you never question why the single DD was higher than what your mortgage payments should have been?

leeroybrown

MammaZita wrote: »

Did you never question why the single DD was higher than what your mortgage payments should have been?

People (unfortunately) rely on banks to tell them what they do and don't require in order to draw down a mortgage.

MammaZita wrote: »

Did you never question why the single DD was higher than what your mortgage payments should have been?

Again, people look at their payments in terms of what they are and whether they're increasing or not. If your bank tells you that your monthly payment is €1000 and it doesn't increase or decrease unusually it's actual work to figure out that there's a problem.

honeybuns

BazzaDP wrote: »

That's quite a bold statement to make. What are you basing this on? The fact you can't remember signing up for it? Or do you have a copy of the application and it's definitely not your signature? How to handle will depend on your answer to that.

Had to request a copy and it's Def not my signature nor husbands.

MammaZita

leeroybrown wrote: »

People (unfortunately) rely on banks to tell them what they do and don't require in order to draw down a mortgage.

House and life assurance are 2 givens though- I'd be very surprised that a mortgage holder would not be aware of the requirement for both. Also it would come up in conversation with your solicitor too.

The bank are obviously at fault here but the customer also had the "benefit" (perceived or otherwise) of the policy for the last 7 years.

leeroybrown

MammaZita wrote: »

House and life assurance are 2 givens though- I'd be very surprised that a mortgage holder would not be aware of the requirement for both. Also it would come up in conversation with your solicitor too.

The OP doesn't appear to have actually questioned the fact that a policy of some kind involved, or that they needed it, just that it was undertaken with a forged signature.

MammaZita wrote: »

The bank are obviously at fault here but the customer also had the "benefit" (perceived or otherwise) of the policy for the last 7 years.

I'd suggest that now that the forgery has come to light it transpired that the OP was never actually insured. If it came out in the event of a claim the OP would likely have ended up in limbo while the bank argued over eventually assuming liability. They're probably due a refund as they technically weren't insured.

How the bank will proceed is another question. Possibly a new policy, a refund of some kind and a non-disclosure agreement to make them forget the legal/regulatory side of the issue.

honeybuns

We had assumed we had all this done - there were so many forms that were signed this is why we did not question it. But I decided to price around this year for possibly cheaper quotes something I had put off for some time. Quotes were coming in exceptionally cheaper and a provider asked me what our benefits were with existing policy. This is when I went back to bank and asked for paperwork - this was the only paperwork I was missing. According to my provider if a claim arose on this policy that the policy would not pay out as the signatures would not match so really over last 7 years we have not been covered but have been paying premiums. No talk of returning premiums has spoken I suppose on both investigations are finalised. Ultimately it is fraud on behalf of the bank the manager has as good as said that so this is where we are at the moment. We have to organise a new policy as we are not covered.

MammaZita

honeybuns wrote: »

We had assumed we had all this done - there were so many forms that were signed this is why we did not question it. But I decided to price around this year for possibly cheaper quotes something I had put off for some time. Quotes were coming in exceptionally cheaper and a provider asked me what our benefits were with existing policy. This is when I went back to bank and asked for paperwork - this was the only paperwork I was missing. According to my provider if a claim arose on this policy that the policy would not pay out as the signatures would not match so really over last 7 years we have not been covered but have been paying premiums. No talk of returning premiums has spoken I suppose on both investigations are finalised. Ultimately it is fraud on behalf of the bank the manager has as good as said that so this is where we are at the moment. We have to organise a new policy as we are not covered.

Organise a new policy as a matter of urgency especially as there are 2 of you.

As you will both now be 7 years older (and may also have increased premia due to changes in family or indeed your own health), this will need to be compensated by your current bank also.

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

Organise a new policy as a matter of urgency especially as there are 2 of you.

As you will both now be 7 years older (and may also have increased premia due to changes in family or indeed your own health), this will need to be compensated by your current bank also.

We have already been quoted and are just waiting on forms to sign yes we are 7 years older health circumstances have not changed - family has grown a bit but 1 actually and quotations thankfully have not increased. Mammazita have you come across this sort of thing before.

MammaZita

honeybuns wrote: »

We have already been quoted and are just waiting on forms to sign yes we are 7 years older health circumstances have not changed - family has grown a bit but 1 actually and quotations thankfully have not increased. Mammazita have you come across this sort of thing before.

I've heard of this and similar happening. Generally while it is absolutely forgery and totally unacceptable, it was foolishly and stupidly done by an overworked bank official often under pressure by the clients solicitor that drawdown is required in X number of days or worse again, their own manager to get the paperwork off the desk and on to the mortgage drawdown department, with no gain for themselves.

No doubt heads will roll. But I'd definitely get the other policy in place, as if the worst were to happen, the fact you and your partner are now actually aware that you have no lifecover, would put you in a very different position than it might have 6 months ago.

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

I've heard of this and similar happening. Generally while it is absolutely forgery and totally unacceptable, it was foolishly and stupidly done by an overworked bank official often under pressure by the clients solicitor that drawdown is required in X number of days or worse again, their own manager to get the paperwork off the desk and on to the mortgage drawdown department, with no gain for themselves.

No doubt heads will roll. But I'd definitely get the other policy in place, as if the worst were to happen, the fact you and your partner are now actually aware that you have no lifecover, would put you in a very different position than it might have 6 months ago.

Do you know what the outcome generally is. we have been advised that it is a matter for the gardai. This employee left their employ 6 months after this occurred. The Manager said had he still worked there it would be on the spot firing and then an investigation. There was no reason for this to be done - we both worked in same area 5 mins from bank. I just can't see why he would have done it and neither can bank manager. I think at least we should get our premiums back but as yet that has not been offered.

MammaZita

honeybuns wrote: »

Do you know what the outcome generally is. we have been advised that it is a matter for the gardai. This employee left their employ 6 months after this occurred. The Manager said had he still worked there it would be on the spot firing and then an investigation. There was no reason for this to be done - we both worked in same area 5 mins from bank. I just can't see why he would have done it and neither can bank manager. I think at least we should get our premiums back but as yet that has not been offered.

The manager is talking nonsense. He would not have been fired on the spot as a full investigation would have to be carried out and bank officials are very well protected by their union. The manager is obviously creating the impression that he is shocked by such an incident (believe me he's not and will have seen or been aware if worse).

I'm not sure if the Guards will pursue the individual on the basis that there was no gain for themselves. They'll probably be asked to make a statement at most.. Might be different if the bank / insurance co had a claim on the particular policy. But that's just my opinion.

Sounds like the bank are trying to cover their own backsides. Handy for them that the employee no longer works there.

Have you referred the matter to the Financial Services Ombudsman? Have you been invited by the bank manager to refer a complaint there (you should have been)?

As a matter of interest, had you filled out all of the questionnaires on the form and was it just your signatures missing from the form? Obviously if the employee filled out everything then that is a lot more serious and questionable.

GrumpyMe

honeybuns wrote: »

The Manager said had he still worked there it would be on the spot firing and then an investigation...

Obviously the Manager hasn't any HR qualifications... Kinda putting the hanging before the fair trial!

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

The manager is talking nonsense. He would not have been fired on the spot as a full investigation would have to be carried out and bank officials are very well protected by their union. The manager is obviously creating the impression that he is shocked by such an incident (believe me he's not and will have seen or been aware if worse).

I'm not sure if the Guards will pursue the individual on the basis that there was no gain for themselves. They'll probably be asked to make a statement at most.. Might be different if the bank / insurance co had a claim on the particular policy. But that's just my opinion.

Sounds like the bank are trying to cover their own backsides. Handy for them that the employee no longer works there.

Have you referred the matter to the Financial Services Ombudsman? Have you been invited by the bank manager to refer a complaint there (you should have been)?

As a matter of interest, had you filled out all of the questionnaires on the form and was it just your signatures missing from the form? Obviously if the employee filled out everything then that is a lot more serious and questionable.

We had two mortgages one for a site then one for the building - tis the policy on the building that is in question. we have been in to talk to bank manager regarding complaint. the insurance co have been informed and I have sent an email to the ombudsman - not sure if there 6 year limit applies here or not but will find that out soon enough I am sure.
the documents that were forwarded on for both policies are word for word the same and the part that we should fill in name address date of birth all that is filled in by employee even down to the date under our signatures.

MammaZita

I see.

The bank will I'm sure refund for a policy which was/is infact null and void.

I wonder did the bank official assume that full lifecover was already in place (from when you took out the mortgage in the site) and then panicked when you or your Solicitor started looking for stage drawdowns to pay the builder? I'm only guessing and not excusing his behaviour in the slightest. It was wrong and inexcusable. Forgery is never acceptable even if its to the benefit of the customer. This person has put their entire career on the line for the sake of making a phone call for the 2 of you to come in...

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

I see.

The bank will I'm sure refund for a policy which was/is infact null and void.

I wonder did the bank official assume that full lifecover was already in place (from when you took out the mortgage in the site) and then panicked when you or your Solicitor started looking for stage drawdowns to pay the builder? I'm only guessing and not excusing his behaviour in the slightest. It was wrong and inexcusable. Forgery is never acceptable even if its to the benefit of the customer. This person has put their entire career on the line for the sake of making a phone call for the 2 of you to come in...

I guess we will find out soon enough but I have to say the fact we know that we are not covered has caused us some sleepless nights. Even driving to work and worried god forbid I was to have an accident then what sort of mess was I leaving behind for my husband and 3 children. I was hoping to find someone on here that had possible been through this and exactly what the process was and how it got resolved. He was extremely foolish - he is still working in the industry so I believe - bank had not at time of us meeting them looked into his paperwork or contacted him ...so they say!!!!

Addle

Are you sure OP that you didn't sign a power of attorney document when you took out your mortgage allowing a bank official to act on your behalf?

honeybuns

Addle wrote: »

Are you sure OP that uiut didn't sign a power of attorney document when you took out your mortgage allowing a bank official to act on your behalf?

Definitely not why would I do that???? We did not know this person outside of the bank!!!

MammaZita

honeybuns wrote: »

I guess we will find out soon enough but I have to say the fact we know that we are not covered has caused us some sleepless nights. Even driving to work and worried god forbid I was to have an accident then what sort of mess was I leaving behind for my husband and 3 children. I was hoping to find someone on here that had possible been through this and exactly what the process was and how it got resolved. He was extremely foolish - he is still working in the industry so I believe - bank had not at time of us meeting them looked into his paperwork or contacted him ...so they say!!!!

It's unlikely they will contact him either- the fact he's gone it's their issue to deal with and they'll leave it to the Fraud squad within the Guards who probably won't understsnd or be too interested, and the bank's own advisors and heads will decide on an appropriate refund and compensation for you in addition to liaising with the Ombudsman if appropriate.

I can imagine how stressful it is but try not go worry. You will be compensated and have taken steps to secure fresh lifecover.

I have not come across incidences relating to lifecover specifically I'm afraid.

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

It's unlikely they will contact him either- the fact he's gone it's their issue to deal with and they'll leave it to the Fraud squad within the Guards who probably won't understsnd or be too interested, and the bank's own advisors and heads will decide on an appropriate refund and compensation for you in addition to liaising with the Ombudsman if appropriate.

I can imagine how stressful it is but try not go worry. You will be compensated and have taken steps to secure fresh lifecover.

I have not come across incidences relating to lifecover specifically I'm afraid.

I suppose we have been thinking what if scenarios. Its kinda like last 7 years where we thought and were happy in the knowledge that we had affairs sorted suddenly have been turned upside down and was all a lie - kinda hard to explain.

Hopefully new life cover will get sorted without problems and we can at least rest a bit easier. Thank you for all your advice and thoughts

Ronin247

Honeybuns, is it a life insurance policy or a payment protection policy that the signature was forged on?
There would have been an incentive to forge a payment protection policy as the bank staff were ( mostly ) on a bonus to sell these kind of policies

amdublin

honeybuns wrote: »

I suppose we have been thinking what if scenarios. Its kinda like last 7 years where we thought and were happy in the knowledge that we had affairs sorted suddenly have been turned upside down and was all a lie - kinda hard to explain.

Hopefully new life cover will get sorted without problems and we can at least rest a bit easier. Thank you for all your advice and thoughts

If it's any consolation at least nothing happened over the last 7 years and you are finding out now, at this point - not, god forbid, if you were trying to make a claim on potentially a null & void insurance policy.

Get that new cover in place quick!

MammaZita

Ronin247 wrote: »

Honeybuns, is it a life insurance policy or a payment protection policy that the signature was forged on?
There would have been an incentive to forge a payment protection policy as the bank staff were ( mostly ) on a bonus to sell these kind of policies

The OP already had a policy in relation to the original mortgage on the site though, so unlikely forging the signature to gain a sale, as v likely they customers would have taken an identical policy out with the same institution- all that was required were the signatures?

Maybe there was an issue with approval for building costs (as in confirming the actual amount required) so original mortgage and hence life policy related to the site only.

Hard to know but sounds like a very stupid thing for the official to do.

honeybuns

Ronin247 wrote: »

Honeybuns, is it a life insurance policy or a payment protection policy that the signature was forged on?
There would have been an incentive to forge a payment protection policy as the bank staff were ( mostly ) on a bonus to sell these kind of policies

Mortgage protection policy - we thought we had a policy whereby in the event of one of our deaths the mortgage would have been cleared. What we actually have is upon death the original mortgage value will pay our regardless of how many years have passed - this is something else we didn't know we had!!!! All I can assume is that this guy was on a bonus for anything he sold and just wanted to make the sale

honeybuns

MammaZita wrote: »

The OP already had a policy in relation to the original mortgage on the site though, so unlikely forging the signature to gain a sale, as v likely they customers would have taken an identical policy out with the same institution- all that was required were the signatures?

Maybe there was an issue with approval for building costs (as in confirming the actual amount required) so original mortgage and hence life policy related to the site only.

Hard to know but sounds like a very stupid thing for the official to do.

MammaZita I just don't know now trying best to remember what went on a lot happened after we started to draw down the mortgage DH lost his job we were building at the time we had two small children...it was hard to know but the fact is it was done and now we just want it finished with and over and done with

Henry Ford III

honeybuns wrote: »

Mortgage protection policy - we thought we had a policy whereby in the event of one of our deaths the mortgage would have been cleared. What we actually have is upon death the original mortgage value will pay our regardless of how many years have passed - this is something else we didn't know we had!!!! All I can assume is that this guy was on a bonus for anything he sold and just wanted to make the sale

Fascinating case.

What you seem to have been given is a level term policy not a mortgage protection policy. LTA costs a bit more but provides better value. Check the proposal form copy you have to confirm.

How can you be 100% sure who exactly signed the proposal OP? Could it have been a well intentioned (but unwise) person elsewhere in the bank, or a solicitor, or someone in the insurer?

A few thoughts...

A false signature is forgery but I'm not certain that the policy would have been voidable. After all there was no non disclosure. The non written opinion of a manager is valueless in this respect.

Assuming for a second that the cover was valid is there any financial loss to you OP? I'd say not.

Was it one signature that was forged or both?

honeybuns

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Fascinating case.

What you seem to have been given is a level term policy not a mortgage protection policy. LTA costs a bit more but provides better value. Check the proposal form copy you have to confirm.

How can you be 100% sure who exactly signed the proposal OP? Could it have been a well intentioned (but unwise) person elsewhere in the bank, or a solicitor, or someone in the insurer?

A few thoughts...

A false signature is forgery but I'm not certain that the policy would have been voidable. After all there was no non disclosure. The non written opinion of a manager is valueless in this respect.

Assuming for a second that the cover was valid is there any financial loss to you OP? I'd say not.

Was it one signature that was forged or both?

The only thing we are sure of is the neither of us signed it but somehow there are 2 signatures. I am not a professional in signature analysis but looking at the copy of the declaration that we had to request the writing ie our address dates names signatures and signature of Financial advisor is all the same. I have not accused any individual I took at policy with our bank not with an employee.

both signatures are incorrect!!!

Our issue now is we did not consent to the policy nor did we consent to the funds to be deducted from our account. Plus in the event of a claim are we really covered!!! Its a scary thing to realise after years of assuming that you are covered for such eventualities that all of a sudden there is now a doubt.

Henry Ford III

honeybuns wrote: »

The only thing we are sure of is the neither of us signed it but somehow there are 2 signatures. I am not a professional in signature analysis but looking at the copy of the declaration that we had to request the writing ie our address dates names signatures and signature of Financial advisor is all the same. I have not accused any individual I took at policy with our bank not with an employee.

both signatures are incorrect!!!

Our issue now is we did not consent to the policy nor did we consent to the funds to be deducted from our account. Plus in the event of a claim are we really covered!!! Its a scary thing to realise after years of assuming that you are covered for such eventualities that all of a sudden there is now a doubt.

An ambiguous reply.

You firstly say you are not a handwriting expert and then repeat the allegation based on your admittedly non expert knowledge. You need to establish conclusively who forged your signatures before making accusations I'd suggest.

Both signatures forged - noted.

I think you'll find you did acknowledge that life assurance was a condition of the mortgage, and that the policy would have been assigned to the lender. You should also have been given a copy of the policy doc. You would also have consented for the collection of premiums as part of your mortgage payment. That's all standard stuff.

The crux of all this is the validity or otherwise of the policy. Assuming it's valid you're no worse off. Assuming however that the insurer would have voided it you'll be in a position to recover your total premiums, and essentially enjoyed 7 years without having to pay for the cover. The only way to establish this is to have the Insurer (not the Bank or Solicitor) confirm in writing how thaey would have proceeded had a death claim occured.

Where you've been fortunate is that in the 7 year period there's been no claim and no deterioration of health that would make fresh life assurance difficult/impossible to obtain.

Either way you aren't really in a bad place imho.

honeybuns

Henry Ford III wrote: »

An ambiguous reply.

You firstly say you are not a handwriting expert and then repeat the allegation based on your admittedly non expert knowledge. You need to establish conclusively who forged your signatures before making accusations I'd suggest.

Both signatures forged - noted.

I think you'll find you did acknowledge that life assurance was a condition of the mortgage, and that the policy would have been assigned to the lender. You should also have been given a copy of the policy doc. You would also have consented for the collection of premiums as part of your mortgage payment. That's all standard stuff.

The crux of all this is the validity or otherwise of the policy. Assuming it's valid you're no worse off. Assuming however that the insurer would have voided it you'll be in a position to recover your total premiums, and essentially enjoyed 7 years without having to pay for the cover. The only way to establish this is to have the Insurer (not the Bank or Solicitor) confirm in writing how thaey would have proceeded had a death claim occured.

Where you've been fortunate is that in the 7 year period there's been no claim and no deterioration of health that would make fresh life assurance difficult/impossible to obtain.

Either way you aren't really in a bad place imho.

yes the crux is the validity or otherwise of the policy. The Insurer is currently at the investigation stage. We are in limbo. They say verbally you should be ok with cover and there is no need to seek alternative cover but until their investigations are completed they will not put this in writing so do we seek alternative cover or do we wait. I think I need to seek alternative cover from another insurer but I need to keep this policy "live" until investigations are complete and report is issued.