Typical Experience Profile required for AP Role in Civil Service

InReality

I've heard there will be an internal competition for AP Roles later this year.

I wondering what people think would be the typical/average profile of an AP - how long they would have spent in work overall , how long as a HEO/AO.

I've heard that on average people have been anywhere from 10-15 years as a HEO/AO before getting to AP.

Tarzana

InReality wrote: »

I've heard there will be an internal competition for AP Roles later this year.

I wondering what people think would be the typical/average profile of an AP - how long they would have spent in work overall , how long as a HEO/AO.

I've heard that on average people have been anywhere from 10-15 years as a HEO/AO before getting to AP.

A guy who was in my year in school is an AP in the Department of Finance. We did the LC in 2001, he would have graduated from his degree in 2005 and he has been an AP since late 2012. So definitely not 10-15 relevant years experience behind him when he landed that gig! I'm not sure what he was before he was an AP.

FloatingVoter

To get AP at 30ish (LC-2001 + 13 = 30) as stated above, you'd need a relevant degree. Finance / Revenue always need accountants and economists. There's also a lot of competition for those roles. There is a thread in here somewhere about AO roles that might give you a better idea.

Tarzana

FloatingVoter wrote: »

To get AP at 30ish (LC-2001 + 13 = 30) as stated above, you'd need a relevant degree. Finance / Revenue always need accountants and economists. There's also a lot of competition for those roles. There is a thread in here somewhere about AO roles that might give you a better idea.

Yeah, he did an finance and economics related degree.

He would have been 28 when he got the role though!

InReality

I wonder what would be the average age of the new AP's.
I'm 40 now and have started to feel a bit of pressure to get this one as might be getting a bit too old ( and my competencies are a bit "static" ) for another ..

delricyo

Remember you dont have to be an AO or HEO to get AP nowadays. You could get a high flying EO getting the AP position.

I think it depends on experience and how good you are in your current role. I know a couple of people who got AP in their late twenties. One of these people went on to get PO at 34 !!

But on the other hand you hear stories of people who try for years and get AP in their early fifties

InReality

Yeah I'd expect a few to go through esp in an inter departmental competition.
And I think on balance its a good thing all the grades are open now.

I found a report from mid 2000 where about 50% of AP at that time had been promoted in part because of seniority and 70% had been promoted within their departments.

Wonder if any depts take seniority into a/c these days ?

delricyo

InReality wrote: »

Yeah I'd expect a few to go through esp in an inter departmental competition.
And I think on balance its a good thing all the grades are open now.

I found a report from mid 2000 where about 50% of AP at that time had been promoted in part because of seniority and 70% had been promoted within their departments.

Wonder if any depts take seniority into a/c these days ?

Havent heard of many seniority positions in a good while. I like the inter-dept idea. Not just for promotion, but it gives people the experience of other areas of work. So many people start and finish in the same dept - cant do any harm to change the scenery...

The only thing that might crop up at some stage is the opportunity for AO/HEO higher scale positions. AFAIK, there are no interviews, but the PO's meet up and decide who should get the position. Might be worth a couple of grand a year

mozattack

What about a 35 year on first AO grade in civil service for first time but with a degree and two professional
Qualifications.

Too late to the party or maybe give it a few years and AO a possibility?

InReality

If you mean joining as an AO at 35 ? That is a grand move IMO. I think the average joining age is anywhere from 25-35

I think there is an Open AO this Sept as well.

M1982

I'm an AP so just to give my own perspective. Yes it's absolutely possible to progress quite quickly provided a few critical factors are in play. Some you control, others you just cant:

*Your education and experience. Increasingly competitions are more specific, but in general once you are in the CS it's important to keep up your professional development and demonstrate the relevance of your education as a factor in achieving results and bringing new solution based approached to the table

*The kind of work you are already working on. Do you have the capacity to adequately demonstrate your capability?

*Staff management experience. Some AO's can struggle with this competency as a lot of AO work is autonomous. An AP would be expected to demonstrate strong leadership and staff management. Knowing that you're capable and demonstrating it through example are very different things. Its often good to look for staff management experience during Role Profile decisions.

*The Department that you are in. The more policy heavy Departments place a strong emphasis on having stable numbers of AP's as they view it as a critical link grade.

Your willingness to commute/transfer for a promotion or a job with good opportunity. I've paid that price and continue to do so in spite of having two pre-school children at home.

In my case, I came into the service as an EO in 2006 having just graduated. I applied for the first AO competition that came up (external obviously) and was appointed exactly 2 years after starting as an EO. I stayed in the same Department and got the APO in 2012, so six years in total. I was extremely lucky in my work and experience both nationally and internationally. I had good managers who allowed me opportunity to perform independently and I worked exceptionally hard to utilise the opportunity given in that regard. I also put myself forward for a range of projects that were unrelated to my area to gain experience. I didnt do a post graduate, or MA, but focussed on shorter term courses of direct relevance.

I have colleagues who are equally, if not more capable than I, who have not gotten the AP. Unfortunately in many cases it boiled down to wrong section/ poor opportunity/ lack of variety/ experience......

Taking an AO position at 35 is not unusual. Its a role that many ambitious people take and can move on within a reasonable timeframe. The pay is not as good as some graduates get (or used to) but remember that its a pay-scale. Your salary is really the top point but you have to work towards that point over a number of years. This is often mis-represented by the media as bonuses etc. Civil Servants have a scale based on meeting expectations. You dont achieve the full pay figures cited by the media until you have a certain number of years of service which meets or exceeds expectation.


Promotion does not happen as expeditiously as 10-15 years ago when it was comparable to the UK fast-track programme however.

Lpfsox

I've recently sat an AP competition in my Department. For me, I started out as a CA (now abolished grade) in 1995, got an external promotion to EO/Junior Analyst after 6 years and HEO/Analyst 4 years after that. I transferred out of that Department 2 years ago to a completely different role managing a large office (had previously very little staff management experience). I don't hold a degree but do hold IT related qualifications, gained over my time as EO/JSA and HEO/SA.

The competition for AP was pretty fierce and like the recent CO competition took the format of unsupervised aptitude tests followed by supervised tests and, finally interview. Circa 5000 candidates sat the tests (combined number with candidates for EO to HEO competition - the tests were simultaneous), with the top 96 at each level being called to interview. Prior to interview a lengthy written application was required, which included educational and career details, a written demonstration based on career experience of how you demonstrated each of the prescribed competencies at AP level and a management evaluation. Some of these candidates were then placed on a panel for promotion. I'm one of the lucky ones who was placed.

So in summary, educational qualifications are not necessarily relevant (obviously this will depend on the post you are assigned to - for example, ICT qualifications are relevant in an ICT role but not so much in a policy one), but you will be expected to demonstrate your capability to lead and manage staff, make informed decisions and solve problems, and take responsibility for delivering results.

Best of luck with your application.

bobbysands81

InReality wrote: »

Yeah I'd expect a few to go through esp in an inter departmental competition.
And I think on balance its a good thing all the grades are open now.

I found a report from mid 2000 where about 50% of AP at that time had been promoted in part because of seniority and 70% had been promoted within their departments.

Wonder if any depts take seniority into a/c these days ?

Promotions based on seniority no longer exist in CS.

AP is the hardest grade in CS in my opinion. Loads of **** lands on you from above, loads of **** lands on you from below.

M1982

Regarding seniority post, I would agree with others here that time on it's own is not enough. Many people with seniority also have good experience, but without that, there are no extra points for service.

Yes the AP role can be a tough one, and to an extent I'd agree Bobbysands81 that
"Loads of **** lands on you from above, loads of **** lands on you from below"
but it is a worthwhile and satisfying job too. You have a bit more control over how you do things and what becomes of them. You might get more recognition for work done also which is often hard to get at HEO/AO level and below.

And I'd agree with what Lpfsox says regarding qualifications, as an AP is expected to be a generalist, and be flexible throughout his/her career, a specific degree may not be essential. A good demonstration of the key competencies is far more advantageous.

That seems like an arduous screening process in your Department for the AP and HEO posts. And it must have been daunting to go up against thousands of others. Those numbers remind me of the open EO/HEO/AO competitions before the recession where they did the test in the RDS...... I remember being in there feeling like I'd never even hear back there were so many people doing the tests!

Given the numbers applying I presume it was the only method considered fair to determine eligibility, but it seems odd that a panel of 80 was created from only 96 interviews. I would have assumed that in order to create a panel of 80, a Department would interview over 200 people. In recent competitions in our Department the ratio of interview:post was about 3:1 following a shortlisting process with a similar ratio. But each place is different and I'm straying from topic.

It will be interesting to see how the Interdepartmental and Open AP competitions unfold later in the year. I know that PAS are using online aptitude test for the current CO competitions and I had a look the other day. Not sure I'd like to have to go through that process again! Anyone looking at the upcoming competitions would be well advised to start their competency work now. Almost all competitions still follow the IPQ (Interview Preparation Questionnaire) format so you need to cite examples under each competency. The document has to be prepared in advance of shortlisting/interview and is the basis for both structured and semi-structured interviews. Looking at the following link

w.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/client/toolkit/docs/a4_foldout.pdf

Its likely that you will have to demonstrate your experience under one or more competencies from each colour block. Firstly you'll have space to list all the work experience that you show that quality in, then you'll be asked to select one major example of how you demonstrated your capacity and take the example from start to finish.

In my experience, preparing this document is the most challenging part of the process and the most time consuming. If this form is not done well you may not even get to interview, or if you do, you might find yourself confined by the examples given and feel you didn't do yourself justice. You should start early and get as much feedback as you can from managers/friends/experts. By looking at these now, while its hard to predict exactly which competencies will appear on the actual form, you can preempt a lot of hard work by thinking out examples and jotting them down. Also use the time in advance to clarify all the factual details on an application like educations, training courses, dates in sections and departments. That all takes time and when you're up against it you'll be glad you did the ground work!

Best of luck

The_Conductor

As far as I am aware- seniority is no longer taken into consideration in internal competitions- its the same standard testing process as the internal competitions earlier this year.

KCC

M1982 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how the Interdepartmental and Open AP competitions unfold later in the year.

I would say it will almost certainly be online aptitude tests, followed by supervised tests, followed by interview + some sort of work exercise/presentation. So for me it's simple: my initial focus will be on practicing for the tests.

M1982

Yes, I'd imagine you're right and I would expect also that the Interdepartmental will be open to all grades, unlike previously where it was only open to existing AO/HEO or equivalents.

I think that the only difference between the Interdepartmental and the Open will be that the former will only be for existing Civil Servants so as to have a panel to facilitate movement within existing numbers across the service.

Hopefully there will be clarity also on how vacancies are to be filled regarding panels. At present I think returning career breaks followed by redeployment panels have priority, then internal panels. But when open and interdept panels are created they will have to give a clear indication of a rotation system or something fair. Otherwise it can lead to terrible frustrations for people who are next on an internal panel and "expecting" the job of the person down the hall who retires; and equal frustrations for candidates on open comps who might be third on their panel, but not realise that a few other panels are competing for the same vacancies......

Yes if an aptitude test is nigh, then practice really should be done. They are all about speed. About seeing the graph/presentation of info and assessing how much you need to do with it. The more practiced you are, the more time you have to get things right!