Insurance liability

KANEGER

How liable is a cycling club if one of their members causes an accident while riding on a club spin and that rider has not got a CI licience ?

derealbadger

As far as i am aware you can not join a club without also becoming a member of CI

KANEGER

Cheers.That would be so if you join the club through CI site but if paying club fee seperate you could bypass the licience.I was just wondering about liability of the club in the event of a claim etc.Of course following from that could the non licience holder be liable for damage to bike and injury to others ???

buffalo

KANEGER wrote: »

Cheers.That would be so if you join the club through CI site but if paying club fee seperate you could bypass the licience.I was just wondering about liability of the club in the event of a claim etc.Of course following from that could the non licience holder be liable for damage to bike and injury to others ???

From a layman, the club's insurance is provided by CI. If the offending rider is not a member of CI, and hasn't signed on as going on one of the three 'guest spins' allowed by CI for non-members, then they are uninsured, strictly speaking. I think.

If that is the case, those who suffered damage or injury would have to come to a private settlement with the offending party, or take a case to the injuries board, or sue, or something. The club may be liable at some level if it was an official club spin, and they allowed a non-insured member to partake.

Disclaimer: alcohol has been consumed tonight. I may well be talking through my arse.

KANEGER

Thanks for that and some very good points.The few jars would only have helped :-)
Would love to hear some more opionions on this or even peoples experiences of claims etc.

Lumen

I know nothing about how clubs are insured, but...

Insurance and liability are separate issues.

Even if club CI insurance requires that all members are CI members, and so in this case the club's insurance was somehow voided, the club would not be liable unless it had somehow caused the accident through negligence.

Accidents happen.

KANEGER

Thank you.The op was a worst case scenario brought up at a club meeting and great to get some outside opionions on it.

lennymc

Kaneger - I think you would be better off contacting CI or a legal representative with the policy information (available here) if you or the club have any concerns, as advice on the internet may or may not be correct

thesimpsons

you could insist that the only way to pay the club fees is on receipt of CI membership or else use the CI site to accept payment of club fees at same time as paying the CI membership.

thesimpsons

raises the question too of what to do when a person who hasn't paid club fees or CI membership and turns up for a cub spin having already availed of their free introduction spin. while you can tell them to f off and not be a part of the spin, there is very little you can really do to stop someone from cycling along side or just behind the club. It probably would rarely or never happen, but again in the worst case scenario - some people are just dickheads and wouldn't/don't want to see what the problem would be. we had someone who caused 3 minor accidents on 3 different spins and hadn't paid up to CI.

Beasty

CI rules do not require all club members to be CI members AFAIK, as many clubs allow IVCA members also (although some of us are members of both)

Clearly we are not allowed to provide any legal advice on Boards, but I would be concerned if any non-insured riders took part in any of my club's spins. By "insured" that means participants should have third party cover, via CI or the IVCA (or possibly some non-Irish organisation) or be benefitting from the cover afforded by CI for non-members via the "3 spin rule"

Let me illustrate my concerns by an example

Say there is a group of 40 riders out on a Saturday morning spin.They always do the same route and generally go through around the same time. Then there's one uninsured participant in the spin.

Say the group is going through a small village and the unisnured rider hits someone perhaps on a pedestrai crossing, or breaks a red light and causes an accident

Now put yourself in the position of the person on the other side - either suffering injury/damage or being the parent of a child knocked down. They perhaps think the group was riding too fast. They see perhaps 30 or more of the group wearing the gear of a particular club. Who are they going to try and claim against? The rider causing the accident has no insurance and possibly not much in the way of funds/assets to claim against. The Club, if it has followed CI rules and guidelines does have cover. However I would be concerned about the potential of a claim against any assets the club may have if the club has knowingly permitted non-insured riders to participate in a club spin

lennymc

If a club is not insured (by CI or a.n.other) then the club members can be personally liable.

Insurance
As an unincorporated association, the club members are personally liable for the actions or debts of the club. Therefore, the club should obtain adequate insurance to cover its members. It should have suitable public liability insurance and professional indemnity insurance for its activities. Advice on insurance may be available from the national governing body, if there is one.

Source - Citizens information website

Inquitus

lennymc wrote: »

If a club is not insured (by CI or a.n.other) then the club members can be personally liable.



Source - Citizens information website

Not sure how correct that is, I hardly think being a member of a club makes you liable for a crash that happens on a spin while you are at home sitting on your sofa.

Beasty

Inquitus wrote: »

Not sure how correct that is, I hardly think being a member of a club makes you liable for a crash that happens on a spin while you are at home sitting on your sofa.

It's the club that's liable. The point is that unless the club is set up as an organisation with limited liability (and to be clear the vast majority are not), then what lennymc's referring to is under general corporate law. The club is essentially it's members. That's why it is important that anyone actually has 3rd party insurance, which in this case comes in 2 forms. The club itself is insured as a club affiliated to CI, and the member is insured via their membership of CI or the IVCA (or potentially an equivalent overseas organisation).

Of course club members need to be comfortable that the club itself does not do anything that potentially invalidates it's insurance (by not following certain CI rules for example). The best way the membership can get some comfort is by ensuring they vote in a committee that they feel is competent to deal with such matters

I do have a concern that some clubs perhaps may not pay attention to some changes in rules or their application by CI, as often it's a case of simply assuming things that went on last year can continue in the same way. Committees need to ensure theye are on top of things and actually check they are compliant with what CI requires on occasions to ensure the insurance is valid.

KANEGER

But the commitee could be liable wether they were on the spin or at home.

ted1

Lumen wrote: »

I know nothing about how clubs are insured, but...

Insurance and liability are separate issues.
.

Not quite true. If there is liability its genreally decided in court because someone is chasing some money. With no insurance in place there's no money to chase so few solicters would take a case to determine liability.

KANEGER

thesimpsons wrote:

raises the question too of what to do when a person who hasn't paid club fees or CI membership and turns up for a cub spin having already availed of their free introduction spin. while you can tell them to f off and not be a part of the spin, there is very little you can really do to stop someone from cycling along side or just behind the club. It probably would rarely or never happen, but again in the worst case scenario - some people are just dickheads and wouldn't/don't want to see what the problem would be. we had someone who caused 3 minor accidents on 3 different spins and hadn't paid up to CI.

Any harm in asking what action was taken against the rider that caused the accidents ?

lennymc

KANEGER wrote: »

But the commitee could be liable wether they were on the spin or at home.

I don't think there is any differentiation from a legal perspective between a committee member and an ordinary club member, but I could be wrong on that.

@beasty - doesn't the setting up or an organisation with limited liability introduce other legal obligations on the club? Apart from a limited company, what other options are available?

Beasty

lennymc wrote: »

@beasty - doesn't the setting up or an organisation with limited liability introduce other legal obligations on the club? Apart from a limited company, what other options are available?

You can go limited company or limited by guarantee. There are additional obligations with both. I am aware that one or two clubs have gone down this route, as has the IVCA. This includes drawing up accounts, the related audit costs, and having a far more stringent set of laws to follow

Personally I think the risks of significant financial claims against individual members is remote, unless that individual was negligent in some way. I think the only real risk is to the assets of the club itself. Many clubs do not own property, or have large amounts of cash in the bank. A few have club cars. I know the IVCA has a substantail amount of cash in the bank (as I am allowed to purchase a set of their accounts from the CRO website for €2.50 - there's a lot more information that limited companies have to publish). Hence it makes sense for them to be a limited company

However the more material risk in my mind is that clubs may be prosecuted under criminal law, say if they permit or encourage members to break the law, or if the club is negligent in not making sure it's properly insured. In this scenario the ones in the firing line are likely to be committee members, and it again re-emphasises the importance of both abiding by CI rules, and even more importantly having adequate insurance in an ever more litigeous world.

KANEGER

A lot of food for thought there thank you all.

boege

Interesting thread as we live in an increasingly litigious society. A company limited by guarantee is a legal structure used by many clubs with significant assets e.g. Golf clubs. There are members instead of shareholders and there must be a minimum of 7. Members liability is normally limited to €1. Members elect directors and these are subject to same rule as normal directors.

It's an interesting question to ask what if someone cause injury to others but I suspect damages can only be claimed where negligence can be proven. In the case of a group sport activity I do wonder if most judges will fall on the side of normal risk associated with a sporting activity. I don't have evidence to hand but I think there have been a few rulings in soccer/GAA where claims for negligence were brought and failed on the basis of sporting risk/heat of the moment arguments. I'm open to being corrected on this last point.

I do know a lot of clubs have a rule about no CI membership/no cycle and if that rule exists and a club proceeds to cycle with a non CI member the club is breaking own rules and one wonders where CI insurance would stand. Increasingly insurance policies have rules and restrictions, you now buy a certain level of insurance cover.

KANEGER

ted1 wrote: »

Not quite true. If there is liability its genreally decided in court because someone is chasing some money. With no insurance in place there's no money to chase so few solicters would take a case to determine liability.

To follow on from this if there is no money to chase ie insurance or club assets would or could someone sue the commitee members in the event of an accident involving an uninsured rider or would liability stop with that rider ?

ted1

KANEGER wrote: »

To follow on from this if there is no money to chase ie insurance or club assets would or could someone sue the commitee members in the event of an accident involving an uninsured rider or would liability stop with that rider ?

They could be, It depends on how the club is set up. The club should be set up so that the the committee are protected and not personally responsible,

I've been involved in associations of extreme sports which carry a high risk and had to restructure the formation