09 Passat or A4 dilemna

olewy

I'm in the lucky position to be changing my car. But, I have a small dilemma. I can't fully decide which to go for out of these two options (not a clear-cut head vs heart dilemma)

09 Passat (B6) Highline CR DPF 170
- less than 60k miles, 3 non-VW service stamps
- 2 owners. 1st owner a leasing company, 2nd owner an elderly private owner who did very low mileage on it.
- No reverse sensors (which I need & want), no bluetooth (not a deal breaker but very handy to have). 3.5mm aux-in jack.
- Condition; v good in photos (not viewed yet)
- Approx ~€13k (inc VRT). Being sold by a large established non-VW dealer.
- Road tax: €390 (146g co2)
- Insurance: €465 comprehensive

09 A4 (B8) Executive SE 143bhp
- just over 50k miles, 3 service stamps (2 by Audi dealers, 1 by large established garage which is the seller)
- 2 owners; 1 private, 1 possibly demo model (tbc)
- Spec; reversing sensors, bluetooth, multichanger, sd card reader, 3.5mm aux-in jack (all from factory)
- Condition; v good in photos (not viewed yet)
- Approx €17k (inc VRT). Being sold by a large established non-Audi dealer.
- Road tax; €280 (134g co2)
- Insurance: €530 comprehensive

I like them both.
Pros of Passat;
+ Cost; ~€4k cheaper (not an insignificant sum)
+ Power; 170bhp vs 140bhp. I've had a 143bhp A4 and though it was far from underpowered I wouldn't mind the extra power of the 170bhp. Not too interested in getting a 143bhp engine mapped for reliability, resale & insurance reasons.
Cons of Passat;
- Resale value; I know it won't hold its value as well as the A4, mainly for badge & road tax/co2 reasons.
- Electronic parking brake issue; almost guaranteed to happen. Could do with the hassle. An indy fix would lessen the financial blow though.
- DPF failure potential; the 143bhp A4 doesn't have a DPF AFAIK. Costly to replace if they fail (though i've read a good regular blowout/hard drive could help prevent this)

A4 pros;
+Spec
+Reliability; better than the B6 Passat (from what I've read).
+Resale value
+Looks/quality; IMO
+Refinement/handling
A4 cons;
- Cost; €4k dearer for same year. Wondering if I would make much of this back when it comes to selling it (approx 4 to 5 years from now).
- Location; owned & for sale in north of England (more chance of rust I've read, due to salting of roads vs South of England).

Thoughts/opinions/suggestions welcome.

bazz26

I cannot see how you can say resale value on the Passat is a con compared to the A4 when it is €4k cheaper to buy in the first place. Buy it cheaper so sell it cheaper. Also the other cons such as DPF failure apply to the A4 too as the Passat and A4 share alot of technology including engines.

If it were me I would go for the higher spec more powerful car. That A4 sounds basic enough and maybe it's just me but I'd hate to be sitting in something so bare every day just for sake of it having a posher badge on the front grill.

Have you considered a Passat CC? Might be a good middle ground between a regular Passat and the A4 which are both too common on the road. Only bug bear is the lack of a rear middle seat. It was optional back in 2009 but even fitted it's of little use except for short journeys.

JohnBoy26

An A4 is by far a superior car to a Passat

bazz26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

An A4 is by far a superior car to a Passat

Sorry but having looked at both extensively when I was buying I have to disagree with you. Imo the A4 fails to justify it's perception, it might have some fancier plastics/chrome and the engine mounted a different way but the majority of them are poorly equipped, overpriced, cramped and have the same vague steering and drive as the cheaper Passat. Nothing superior about it other than perception and branding in my experience and opinion. Given the choice between a high spec Passat/CC or a basic spec A4 I'd choose the Passat.

JohnBoy26

bazz26 wrote: »

Sorry but having looked at both extensively when I was buying I have to disagree with you. Imo the A4 fails to justify it's perception, it might have some fancier plastics/chrome and the engine mounted a different way but the majority of them are poorly equipped, overpriced, cramped and have the same vague steering and drive as the cheaper Passat. Nothing superior about it other than perception and branding in my experience and opinion. Given the choice between a high spec Passat/CC or a basic spec A4 I'd choose the Passat.

The A4 is a far nicer place to be in and is a much nicer looking car too compared to the Passat IMO.

Also its not a simple as the Audi just having its engine the other way around. It's on a completely different platform. The Audi is on its own platform while the Passat is on a stretched version of the golf platform, a car from the class below.

southernstar

You could get an 09 A6 for another couple of thousand...

Just bought an 09 one myself and they are in different league to the Passat (I just traded up from a Passat). They're worth stretching that bit extra if you can.


http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A6/2.0-TDI-/201422224252344/advert?channel=CARS

R.O.R

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The A4 is a far nicer place to be in and is a much nicer looking car too compared to the Passat IMO.

In what way? The standard seats in an A4 are beaten by the standard seats in a Passat Trend/BM or Comfortline, for comfort.

The Sports seats in the A4 have their ass totally handed to them by the sports seats that were standard in the B6 Passat Highline.

The standard Red/Black in most 08/09 Audi's is appaling for a modern car. It was acceptable on an alarm clock in the 80's, but that's where it should have stayed. VW's black/grey isn't much better, but it's better.

Radio / MMI control system on the A4 is not an intuitive system. The controls on the Passat are more basic, but much easier to find your way around.

And finally, whenever I drive a Passat, the outside of my left foot doesn't catch the foot rest. Every time I drive an A4, the outside of my left foot DOES catch the foot rest, and it p1sses me off no end.


OP - buy a Superb. It's a better can than the 2 you are looking at, if you can get over the looks.

colm_mcm

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

the Passat is on a stretched version of the golf platform, a car from the class below.

Can you explain how this is a bad thing or how it affects the OP?
What is your understanding of a platform?

MuppetCheck

The current A4 is one of the most overrated car in its class by some margin. The driving position is off, the interior is below par, in standard form it's not a nice looking car and while it's very smooth to drive it's devoid of any feel. A high spec auto S-line is a nice car, but a basic model is just a badge.

A highline (proper highline not a comfortline with leather) Passat is a decent family car. Not overly exciting but it does what it does well. It's not quite as smooth but it's got more space than the Audi, is cheaper and a better engine.

If you want a family car the Superb is the same thing but bigger and uglier. English specs can be lower than Irish ones but an equivalent to the Irish elegange is hard to beat for a family car.

benny_b

Check out the seat exeo, its based on the older a4 but fitted with the cr engine, I have one myself and love it, some people may be put off by the 'old styling" but for the money you can pick them up for you might find you can get over that pretty quick

bazz26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The A4 is a far nicer place to be in and is a much nicer looking car too compared to the Passat IMO.

Also its not a simple as the Audi just having its engine the other way around. It's on a completely different platform. The Audi is on its own platform while the Passat is on a stretched version of the golf platform, a car from the class below.

Having a different platform doesn't make it superior. It still drives like a regular Passat - lacking any sort of feedback through the steering wheel or driving pleasure, unlike it's rivals from BMW and Mercedes. So what is the unique selling point of the A4 to justify the premium other than paying more for something equal or less?

olewy

Thanks to all that posted so far.

bazz26 wrote: »

I cannot see how you can say resale value on the Passat is a con compared to the A4 when it is €4k cheaper to buy in the first place. Buy it cheaper so sell it cheaper. Also the other cons such as DPF failure apply to the A4 too as the Passat and A4 share alot of technology including engines.

What I should have said is that I assume the A4 will hold its value better than the Passat.
AFAIK the 140bhp CR in the Passat and the 143bhp CR in the A4 don't have a DPF but the 170bhp CR in the Passat does have a DPF. Anyone here have confirmation of this (e.g. link)?

If it were me I would go for the higher spec more powerful car. That A4 sounds basic enough and maybe it's just me but I'd hate to be sitting in something so bare every day just for sake of it having a posher badge on the front grill.

The A4 is better specced (bluetooth, reverse sensors, sd card reader, multichanger, Symphony stereo, tri-zone A/C, auto-headlights, auto-wipers).
The Passat is lesser specced, bar the leather seats (RCD310 stereo & none of the above).
They're both nice places to sit IMO. Believe me it's not about the badge. I wouldn't be considering the Passat if it was.

Have you considered a Passat CC? Might be a good middle ground between a regular Passat and the A4 which are both too common on the road. Only bug bear is the lack of a rear middle seat. It was optional back in 2009 but even fitted it's of little use except for short journeys.

I considered a Passat CC until I sat into one. More compact inside, no rear middle seat, much lower seating position for such a big/wide car. Very nice but just not for me. Plus getting a GT 170 would be much closer to or even beyond A4 Exec SE money.

olewy

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

An A4 is by far a superior car to a Passat

I would have thought so (though maybe not by very far)....if at least in terms of refinement (wind/road noise, sound proofing), build quality & reliability (based on owner reviews, common issues reported etc). Is it €4K better though? Probably not. A lot of that premium is comprised of branding, market positioning etc. If the B8 A4 is built on a better platform than the B6 Passat (I don't know if it is or not, I assume it is based on production year & segment alone) then maybe it's not quite a fair comparison & the premium is more justified. Dunno, Just teasing it out to make an informed decision that's best in the long run.

bazz26

As I said earlier resale value is relevant to what you buy the car for. The A4 will have better resale value because it is costing you €4k more to buy than the Passat.

BTW, all Passat and A4 CR diesel engines have a DPF irrespective of their bhp.

olewy

bazz26 wrote: »

Sorry but having looked at both extensively when I was buying I have to disagree with you. Imo the A4 fails to justify it's perception, it might have some fancier plastics/chrome and the engine mounted a different way but the majority of them are poorly equipped, overpriced, cramped and have the same vague steering and drive as the cheaper Passat. Nothing superior about it other than perception and branding in my experience and opinion. Given the choice between a high spec Passat/CC or a basic spec A4 I'd choose the Passat.

Majority (e.g. SE) maybe, I'm comparing these two specific models (Executive SE & Highline) which have different standard specs. But I get your point.

olewy

bazz26 wrote: »

As I said earlier resale value is relevant to what you buy the car for. The A4 will have better resale value because it is costing you €4k more to buy than the Passat.

BTW, all Passat and A4 CR diesel engines have a DPF irrespective of their bhp.

I'm referring to the relative rate/speed of depreciation (say in % terms) rather than the actual figure value. In otherwords it could be that if I was to sell either of them in say 4 years time that I will have lost less on the A4 than on the Passat (due to residuals, road tax band, spec, age of model etc, particularly when the Passat was replaced...well reshaped & enhanced in 2011...while the A4 is still a current model...albeit due a replacement soon).

Re DPF; thanks. Good to know. For some reason I was sure I read elsewhere that the 140 CR in the Passat at least (possibly in all VW-group CRs) had no DPF. Do you have a link to that somewhere? Can't find a definitive spec breakdown on the engine on Parkers.co.uk or HonestJohn. Though I do have my old A4 manual, must dig it out (not doubting you, just want to confirm for myself).

bazz26

That A4's spec is nothing to write home about to be honest, certainly not worth paying €4k more for imo. Decent spec A4s usually don't start until you get into the S Line models and even at that there are still lots of stuff on the options list.

But it sounds like you have already made up your mind so I'll leave it at that.

olewy

bazz26 wrote: »

That A4's spec is nothing to write home about to be honest, certainly not worth paying €4k more for imo. Decent spec A4s usually don't start until you get into the S Line models and even at that there are still lots of stuff on the options list.

But it sounds like you have already made up your mind so I'll leave it at that.

No I haven't made up my mind, despite if it might sound like that. I wouldn't have posted the long OP otherwise. I'm just trying to be objective when it comes to all the factors involved in whatever final decision I make. Spec being one of them. I know the Executive SE didn't sell in Ireland much as compared to the UK so I know a lot of Irish people are either unaware of it as a model in itself or its standard spec as opposed to the SE & S Line which are what most people are aware of (its between both).

olewy

southernstar wrote: »

You could get an 09 A6 for another couple of thousand...

Just bought an 09 one myself and they are in different league to the Passat (I just traded up from a Passat). They're worth stretching that bit extra if you can.


http://www.carzone.ie/search/Audi/A6/2.0-TDI-/201422224252344/advert?channel=CARS

Thanks. I know the A6 is a class above, litteraly, but stretching further money-wise isn't an option for me, and I always thought the A6 a bit too big for my needs (I know it's not all that much bigger than a Passat but a Passat would be the max size I would go for). Lovely car all the same, especially the latest model.

bazz26

Remember that you are €4k worst off straight away in the A4 so you have to factor that into the cost of depreciation over the term of ownership too. Also both cars will be 9 years old by then so both will have already suffered most of their depreciation before then. Tax difference is a non entity imo - 390 v 280 is nothing over 12 months and in 4 years time cheap tax will probably be a distant memory.

olewy

R.O.R wrote: »

In what way? The standard seats in an A4 are beaten by the standard seats in a Passat Trend/BM or Comfortline, for comfort.

The Sports seats in the A4 have their ass totally handed to them by the sports seats that were standard in the B6 Passat Highline.

The standard Red/Black in most 08/09 Audi's is appaling for a modern car. It was acceptable on an alarm clock in the 80's, but that's where it should have stayed. VW's black/grey isn't much better, but it's better.

Radio / MMI control system on the A4 is not an intuitive system. The controls on the Passat are more basic, but much easier to find your way around.

And finally, whenever I drive a Passat, the outside of my left foot doesn't catch the foot rest. Every time I drive an A4, the outside of my left foot DOES catch the foot rest, and it p1sses me off no end.


OP - buy a Superb. It's a better can than the 2 you are looking at, if you can get over the looks.

Agree on the non-metallic red/black of the A4. Awful. I wouldn't be going for either colour.

I never had a problem with the seats or MMI on the A4 I had before tbh. There is a lot to be said for basic easy to use controls though like you say.

Same with the foot rest, never had a problem with it in the A4, must be just me as I know its a pet peev for a lot of A4 drivers.

I considered a Superb for a while, much better value for what you get, but decided against it. Couldn't get past the looks, plus its that bit bigger than the Passat again which I don't want/need. Nothing to do with badge snobbery. Skodas are fine cars (often better built than their bigger VW-group brothers).

olewy

bazz26 wrote: »

Remember that you are €4k worst off straight away in the A4 so you have to factor that into the cost of depreciation over the term of ownership too. Also both cars will be 9 years old by then so both will have already suffered most of their depreciation before then. Tax difference is a non entity imo - 390 v 280 is nothing over 12 months and in 4 years time cheap tax will probably be a distant memory.

Thanks. You're right, the €100 per year makes little to no difference in terms of cost of ownership, I know that. What I expect it would make a difference to though, which is what I'm trying to get at, is at the point of resale....Irish people seem to be obsessed with low motor tax & that mentality seems to lead them to spend more on newer-model, more efficient cars, mainly for tax reasons (spending thousands to save hundreds etc).

olewy

benny_b wrote: »

Check out the seat exeo, its based on the older a4 but fitted with the cr engine, I have one myself and love it, some people may be put off by the 'old styling" but for the money you can pick them up for you might find you can get over that pretty quick

Thanks, I did check out the Exeo & the Tech models (SE Tech or Sport Tech) have everything spec-wise. Great value for what you get. But they're a bit cramped in the back, being based on the B7 platform, 170 models are also too few & far between & let's face it they're a 2001 chassis design, albeit with most of its issues ironed out, but still old. I found the ride of a 2011 SE harsh compared to the Passat & A4. And I've read their mpg is lower than expected (YMMV, litterally).

MuppetCheck

I'd you want to maximise your resale on an A4 you need to buy an S-Line. Otherwise there is a glut of imported cars just like what you are considering. It's basically an Irish SE with Nav. That will mean spending more money again.

Have you looked at an Accord?

southernstar

olewy wrote: »

Thanks. I know the A6 is a class above, litteraly, but stretching further money-wise isn't an option for me, and I always thought the A6 a bit too big for my needs (I know it's not all that much bigger than a Passat but a Passat would be the max size I would go for). Lovely car all the same, especially the latest model.

You're right about the size. Its not fun driving these things down a multistory (I got an Avant). I now have to find somewhere else to park for work!

micks_address

MuppetCheck wrote: »

I'd you want to maximise your resale on an A4 you need to buy an S-Line. Otherwise there is a glut of imported cars just like what you are considering. It's basically an Irish SE with Nav. That will mean spending more money again.

Have you looked at an Accord?

I choose my Accord over an A4 but then i was biased as my last 2 cars were honda..

the EX model accord has a lovely spec - mines a 09 bought last year with only 54k km (irish car full service history), would love to check out a UK model S type as they are 180bhp as opposed to 150 Irish EX and S spec