Executor dies after taking out probate.

Roubled

The executor of my fathers will (mother dead some years before) was my older sister. She was diagnosed with a terminal illness around the time of my fathers death. I am living in the family home which she agreed to sell me. The contract for sale was sent to a firm of solicitors I was using but due to delays I fired them and the documents were returned to the executors (my sister) solicitors. Then she died and the papers are now in possession of the solicitors.

Can I legally claim the house must still be sold to me at the price agreed with the executor? With this bubble going on the value has gone up since my sisters valuation.

Tigger

get a solicitor that's good at this sort of case

Roubled

Tigger wrote: »

get a solicitor that's good at this sort of case

That's not as easy as it sounds. I've spoken to a number of solicitors in the last few months. I have yet to encounter one who tells me straight out that they haven't handled this situation before. At the same time I have not spoken to one who can give me a definitive answer.

Roubled

I forgot to mention Tigger that the probate office told me today that the grant has not been issued yet and won't be for another 2 or 3 months. The contract for sale can be signed beforehand which is quite common.

coylemj

Who has the house been left to? Once probate is granted, you will be buying the house from whoever owns it, regardless of who was executor of the estate.

What hat was your sister wearing when she 'agreed' to sell you the house - was it as executor with a view to distributing the proceeds to the legatees, or was she agreeing to sell you the share she was left in the will?

Roubled

coylemj wrote: »

Who has the house been left to? Once probate is granted, you will be buying the house from whoever owns it, regardless of who was executor of the estate.

What hat was your sister wearing when she 'agreed' to sell you the house - was it as executor with a view to distributing the proceeds to the legatees, or was she agreeing to sell you the share she was left in the will?

Hello Coylem
She was selling me the house as the executor of the estate based on the independent valuation she got as part of the process. I was paying the full price (less my share). Everything was left in equal shares to the siblings. When the house is purchases it is sold by the executor(s) not the beneficiaries.

coylemj

Did the other siblings agree to the 'agreed' price at the time? I'm assuming there was more than you and your sister when you refer to 'siblings'.

conorh91

Roubled wrote: »

When the house is purchases it is sold by the executor(s) not the beneficiaries.

When the executor dies, a grant of administration with the will annexed will be assigned to the residuary legatee, as per O.79(6) of the Rules of the Superior Courts.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/8652fb610b0b37a980256db700399507/af593c78c54b621980256d2b0046b394?OpenDocument

(6) Where the deceased died on or after the lst day of January, 1967, domiciled in Ireland, leaving a will appointing no executor, or appointing an executor or executors who have been cleared off by death, renunciation, citation, or otherwise, the person, or persons entitled to a grant of administration with will annexed shall be determined in accordance with the following order of priority, namely:—

(a) any residuary legatee or devisee holding in trust for any other person;
[…]

(The residuary legatee is the person to whom the residue of the estate has been bequeathed, usually a family member)

I take this to mean that the deceased executor, having died before probate was granted, has no role to play in the process.

I could be badly mistaken and you shouldn't take my word for anything because I'm not competent in probate matters.

Roubled

coylemj wrote: »

Did the other siblings agree to the 'agreed' price at the time? I'm assuming there was more than you and your sister when you refer to 'siblings'.

She apparently got their agreement as far as I know since she told me she had to discuss it with everybody else before making a decision. However that was mitigated by the fact she was terminally ill. The others will not have any communication with me at all as a result of one member of the family successfully playing divide and conquer.

Roubled

conorh91 wrote: »

When the executor dies, a grant of administration with the will annexed will be assigned to the residuary legatee, as per O.79(6) of the Rules of the Superior Courts.

(The residuary legatee is the person to whom the residue of the estate has been bequeathed, usually a family member)

I take this to mean that the deceased executor, having died before probate was granted, has no role to play in the process.

I could be badly mistaken and you shouldn't take my word for anything because I'm not competent in probate matters.

Thanks Conor.

There is the issue of who takes over which is separate to the issue of the standing of the previously "agreed" price. Any of the surviving siblings can apply to take over as executor but only with the written agreement of all the others as I understand it. I don't know how long it can go on for. Obviously I'm going to object to any of them and they will object to me. I don't know how the stalemate can be broken or if there is a time limit.

Marcusm

Roubled wrote: »

Thanks Conor.

There is the issue of who takes over which is separate to the issue of the standing of the previously "agreed" price. Any of the surviving siblings can apply to take over as executor but only with the written agreement of all the others as I understand it. I don't know how long it can go on for. Obviously I'm going to object to any of them and they will object to me. I don't know how the stalemate can be broken or if there is a time limit.

I would suggest that you don't need legal advice but rather a mediator - whether another family member or a professional. If you cannot discuss it with each other, it's likely the case that you will head to court and waste a substantial part of the estate on legal fees. If the property was placed on the open market, I assume it will achieve substantially more than you are willing to pay for it?

I suspect your agreement with your deceased sibling is unenforceable not having been committed to writing.

Roubled

Marcusm wrote: »

I would suggest that you don't need legal advice but rather a mediator - whether another family member or a professional. If you cannot discuss it with each other, it's likely the case that you will head to court and waste a substantial part of the estate on legal fees. If the property was placed on the open market, I assume it will achieve substantially more than you are willing to pay for it?

I suspect your agreement with your deceased sibling is unenforceable not having been committed to writing.

Hello Marcusm
The agreement is in writing since her solicitor had already drawn it up and sent it to my solicitor. It was subsequently sent back and was to be sent to another firm. As you say this could end up in court and make money for the legal eagles. That's what I'm trying to avoid. I intent to keep the home in the family. It has gone up in price due to the present bubble but any increase is subject to capital gains tax.

conorh91

Roubled wrote: »

There is the issue of who takes over which is separate to the issue of the standing of the previously "agreed" price. Any of the surviving siblings can apply to take over as executor but only with the written agreement of all the others as I understand it

Excuse my ignorance, but is that because there are a class of people (siblings) who are all equally residual legatees? i.e. the residue of the estate is bequeathed to you all equally, as per 0.79 r.6(above), or is there some other rule at work here?

Marcusm wrote: »

I suspect your agreement with your deceased sibling is unenforceable not having been committed to writing.

Even if it were written down, would it have any value? At the time of her death the sister did not have the legal authority to sell the property since probate had not been granted. Due to her untimely death she never had a grant issued to her and it is now the residual legatee(s) who must administer and decide on the sale?

Probably badly wrong here.

Roubled

conorh91 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but is that because there are a class of people (siblings) who are all equally residual legatees? i.e. the residue of the estate is bequeathed to you all equally, as per 0.79 r.6(above), or is there some other rule at work here?

Even if it were written down, would it have any value? At the time of her death the sister did not have the legal authority to sell the property since probate had not been granted. Due to her untimely death she never had a grant issued to her and it is now the residual legatee(s) who must administer and decide on the sale?

Probably badly wrong here.

As far as I can gather any one of the beneficiaries can take over as executor but only with the agreement of the others. With the written agreement of all the beneficiaries anyone (another person outside the family for example) can be appointed executor.

I'm given to understand the sister as executor did have the right to sell the property since the sale need only be based on the contract for sale. The grant of probate is needed to complete the transaction. One estate agent tells me that bringing the signed contract for sale into the probate office in order to speed up the process is quite common.

Marcusm

conorh91 wrote: »

Even if it were written down, would it have any value? At the time of her death the sister did not have the legal authority to sell the property since probate had not been granted. Due to her untimely death she never had a grant issued to her and it is now the residual legatee(s) who must administer and decide on the sale?

Probably badly wrong here.

I was using "not written down" as a less formal way of saying "not the subject of a duly executed conveyance" or "not the subject of a deed of family arrangement" or similar. The basic point is that while the soap should seek legal advice, mediation with his siblings to reaffirm the arrangement with the deceased sibling/putative executrix would likely be a more effective use if resources.