Should I breed from my dog?

Hunchback

I love my Springer Sweep.




Anyone I meet who owns Springers tell me he is an absolute beauty. I am going to get him neutered. But I have been told I should let him do the business at least one time before I do it. Is there any truth in this?

TheSockMonster

No, get him neutered ASAP.

DBB

Hi OP,
Welcome to the forum!:)
I have split your post away from the old thread you had posted in, as it deserves a thread all of its own.
I have also resized your picture as it was vast!

Now, with mod hat off...
There is no basis in science to suggest any reason why a dog (or a bitch, for that matter) should have to have sex ever. It's quite the old wive's tale, perhaps stemming from the show world whereby a dog often needs to have the potential to prove itself as a stud or dam that produces excellent offspring, in order to achieve real success in the showing world.
There is some basis in science to consider delaying neutering some dogs until they have matured sexually and physically, to allow them to develop fully... but this is not linked in any way to whether the dog gets the leg over or not!

andreac

Why would you let him do the deed? Has he been health tested? Proven in the ring or out hunting?

hollytrees

My friend was also told the same about her King Charles cavalier. Lovely cute pups but out of the 3 pups one had heart problems and other one had knee problem. It has put her off for life. So my suggestion is to neuter

Knine

He is a lovely dog. If he is a well behaved dog I would leave him as he is. I would not be rushing off to neuter him but not breeding him either.

None of my many many entire males died of testicular cancer. They all died from old age.

Hunchback

Many thanks all.

He is just a pet, so not a working dog. But his parents were working dogs. I just asked because I want to do the best by him, if you know what i mean.

We have had him health checked and absolutely all clear - the vet says he does not have a cleft palette (?) which he said is a common feature for these dogs.


Glad to hear that essentially, it won't harm him not to have something he never had. He's 14 months now, so I better get the lead out. No pun intended.

andreac

Is he hip scored?

Whispered

Ah there are lots of old wives tales like that, but very few of them are based in fact. He doesn't need to do the deed. Although I can understand why you might want him to, we all love our dogs and they're all special and unique, but can you imagine how many more dogs needing homes there would be if we all bred our dogs because we love them

muddypaws

The other thing to consider is, that once a dog 'does the deed' once, he will know whats what, and, even after neutering, may well try and go after bitches in season, so allowing him to sire a litter can bring more problems for you.

DBB

He is indeed a lovely Springer OP, and Sweep is a lovely name for the breed!

Hunchback

andreac wrote: »

Is he hip scored?

No, he just had a general health check. I didn't ask for this test because he is my first dog and I didn't know such a thing existed. I'm learning on the job

andreac

Well you would need to do all these tests before even considering breeding as you need to ensure he is healthy and free from any issues that the breed can suffer from.

I would highly advise you not to breed unless you are going to carry out all these tests. If he's a pet then just keep him that way. No need to breed just because he can.

Hunchback

Thanks Andreac. I'd hate to be irresponsible, and all this advice helps me to avoid that pitfall.

Hunchback

[IMG][/img]

he had all his buddies around last night. best welcome home ever!

Hunchback

Okay, the above was gratuitous, I hold my hands up

Whispered

Looks like a MAD HOUSE.

I love it

Grab All Association

Thread title lol your lucky this isn't After Hours. Neutering is just wrong unless you have a bitch there's no point. Oh and they still fight over and hump bitches after the snip.

Hunchback

Chris___ wrote: »

Thread title lol your lucky this isn't After Hours. Neutering is just wrong unless you have a bitch there's no point. Oh and they still fight over and hump bitches after the snip.

Hmmm ,interesting. Knine's post at 6 was already playing on my mind. Knine also says not to, but then post #2 says neuter asap.

He is not badly behaved, quite obediant actually.

DBB

Whispered wrote: »

Looks like a MAD HOUSE.

I love it

The Westie looks DISGUSTED

Knine

CKonetheonlyone wrote: »

Hmmm ,interesting. Knine's post at 6 was already playing on my mind. Knine also says not to, but then post #2 says neuter asap.

He is not badly behaved, quite obediant actually.

Read up on the pros & cons of neutering.

My entire dogs have much better coats, more muscle mass & are more agile then my neutered dogs

They also have more drive & not as lazy!

Contrary to what you often read they don't mark in the house or chase the ladies.

Neutering is great in certain circumstances but if your dog is not causing any hassle I would leave him be.

Hunchback

Knine wrote: »

Read up on the pros & cons of neutering.

My entire dogs have much better coats, more muscle mass & are more agile then my neutered dogs

They also have more drive & not as lazy!

Contrary to what you often read they don't mark in the house or chase the ladies.

Neutering is great in certain circumstances but if your dog is not causing any hassle I would leave him be.

Great to know. Sweep NEVER marks in the house, has a ridiculously good coat and is well behaved, and I am pretty delighted to hear from the majority that under such circumstances it's not necessary to neuter.

Needless to say I'll supplement this advice with further research!

DBB

Knine wrote: »

Neutering is great in certain circumstances but if your dog is not causing any hassle I would leave him be.

... on the assumption that you don't allow him out and about the neighbourhood to visit the local in-heat lady dogs
If he's securely contained all the time, and there are no behavioural problems associated with testosterone, there's no hurry OP.
But do a bit of reading up on both sides of the debate, just so that you're comfortable yourself with whatever decision you finally come to
There area good few threads about in in this forum if you do a search.

Frigga_92

^^^ I would second what DBB says. If you can be certain he'll never be free to roam and sow his oats and there are no problems with him then I would hold off.
My great dane wasn't neutered and I had no problems with him.
My male german shepherd isn't neutered, he's nearly 2 and no problems with him either. We have a full house of dogs though and there is usually always one of us home so plenty to keep him entertained. There is a bitch next door and a bitch across the road but he has never been interested and is kept in securely anyway.
I have 2 miniature dachshund puppies and they appear to have reached sexual maturity early, they're not 6 months old yet. They try to hump each other at least once a day and would be carrying on in other ways so once they reach 6 months old I'm going to have a chat with our vet and see what he thinks. Dachshunds would have a strong nose and will always want to follow their nose if allowed so that would be another factor for me, they're smaller dogs, good diggers etc. so more of a chance of them getting out to follow their nose if they were very determined.
Humping is something that my great dane never did and the german shepherd has probably tried it 5 times in his whole life.

mymo

I would wait and see, assuming he's not out roaming or free to get at any bitches.

My advice is look at your situation, read up, don't worry to much about the horror stories you may come accross, they are very rare.

I wasn't going to neuter my boy, but at about 3.5 years he was getting very stressed as there were 4 bitches in the square I lived, all coming into heat at different times, he was whinging and trying to hump my bitch(who is spayed) and annoying her.
Then he started asking to go out and trying to get out of the garden, so I got him done.
I am so glad I did, he's so much happier, still the same crazy loon he always was, his coat is fine, if not better, and I have the peace of mind of not worrying about him trying to escape.

I personally would be worried about what would happen to any puppies he created, if they would be treated well, etc. and with the number of unwanted dogs in this country I just couldn't breed him.

kylith

Chris___ wrote: »

Thread title lol your lucky this isn't After Hours. Neutering is just wrong unless you have a bitch there's no point. Oh and they still fight over and hump bitches after the snip.

No, they don't necessarily still fight over bitches after they have been neutered. If yours did it may have been a behavioural thing, none of the neutered males I know do that.

mymo wrote: »

I wasn't going to neuter my boy, but at about 3.5 years he was getting very stressed as there were 4 bitches in the square I lived, all coming into heat at different times, he was whinging and trying to hump my bitch(who is spayed) and annoying her.
Then he started asking to go out and trying to get out of the garden, so I got him done.
I am so glad I did, he's so much happier, still the same crazy loon he always was, his coat is fine, if not better, and I have the peace of mind of not worrying about him trying to escape.

That is what neutering will do, OP, it will remove the stress of him being able to smell all those sexy, willing lady dogs and wanting to go make their acquaintance. I've known terriers to climb 5' fences to get at bitches, I've been followed by a Labrador who climbed the wall of his garden while walking a bitch who had just started her first heat and I've known litters sired through chicken wire. I recall someone on here telling of a male breaking a window to get out because there was a bitch in heat in the area.

mymo wrote: »

I personally would be worried about what would happen to any puppies he created, if they would be treated well, etc. and with the number of unwanted dogs in this country I just couldn't breed him.

Knine

I have several.entire males & entire bitches living in the same house. No issues! I also regularly have other dogs visiting/staying.

The OP does not have any bitches in his house & most neighbours probably have theirs spayed. His dog is also well behaved.

Tranceypoo

Knine wrote: »

& most neighbours probably have theirs spayed.

In Ireland??? Doubtful!!

borderlinemeath

Tranceypoo wrote: »

In Ireland??? Doubtful!!

I have to agree, I think a lot of owners think there's a lot less managing of females in heat than they think. Most intact females I mind would not be show dogs or even great examples of their breed, although there is a lot less of them about here than intact males.

There's 3 unneutered males here at the minute and one (male) owner "would never do that to him - take his jewels?", another is afraid he'll get overweight and another has simply not bothered even though the dog is only kept secure by an e-collar. :mad: So a lot of the wrong reasons for not neutering still permeate the Irish mindset.

kylith

Tranceypoo wrote: »

In Ireland??? Doubtful!!

Especially since they may well have gotten advice that their bitch needs to have a litter before she can be neutered, or are of the opinion that their dog is well behaved and, sure the neighbour's probably have their dogs neutered.

If you rely on your neighbours to get their dog neutered so you don't have to, how do you know they're not doing the exact same thing?

Knine

Tranceypoo wrote: »

In Ireland??? Doubtful!!

Doubtful really? I would safely say there are far more entire males around then unspayed bitches.

I can also say sadly that there have been far too many young males of my favourite breed who did not see age 5 because they were neutered early in life!

The OP has not had any problems to date with his dog.

I have a lot of dogs. The dogs that are done (males) just do not have the drive, coat or stamina of their entire companions. They would still mate a bitch too.

muddypaws

Knine wrote: »

Doubtful really? I would safely say there are far more entire males around then unspayed bitches.

I can also say sadly that there have been far too many young males of my favourite breed who did not see age 5 because they were neutered early in life!

The OP has not had any problems to date with his dog.

I have a lot of dogs. The dogs that are done (males) just do not have the drive, coat or stamina of their entire companions. They would still mate a bitch too.

Thats your experience, and I respect that, but I also have neutered males that do still have excellent working drive and stamina, and their coats haven't changed. In fact one of my boys has too much working drive, and I do wish neutering had taken some of it out of him :rolleyes:

Knine

muddypaws wrote: »

Thats your experience, and I respect that, but I also have neutered males that do still have excellent working drive and stamina, and their coats haven't changed. In fact one of my boys has too much working drive, and I do wish neutering had taken some of it out of him :rolleyes:

Certain breeds are much more prone to coat changes then others - collies, spaniels, wire coated, retrievers. Their coats can be come very woolly afterwards. People often say their dogs coat did not change but are then surprised when they see the coat on an non altered dog.

Many terrier or gundog breeds can't be hand stripped afterwards. There is no comparison between a hand stripped example of a breed & one who has been clipped.

It is important I believe that people see both pros & cons.

Neutering is great for certain situations such as rescues, behaviour issues etc but if a dog is well adjusted, well behaved pet then I personally would leave it entire. I am talking about males here. Bitches are imo worse to manage then the dogs! In fact if someone comes to me starting out showing I always recommend they start with a dog!

DBB

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

I have 2 miniature dachshund puppies and they appear to have reached sexual maturity early, they're not 6 months old yet. They try to hump each other at least once a day and would be carrying on in other ways so once they reach 6 months old I'm going to have a chat with our vet and see what he thinks.

Your other concerns aside for a moment 26sdrawkcab, puppies humping is not really a sign that they're becoming sexually mature early, it's more of an exploratory motor pattern that they often go through as part of their nomal behavioural development.
I just wanted to say this in case it helps you make a decision! I *think*, if I owned a dax, I'd be doing more research in case their back problems can be exacerbated by early neutering... I'm not saying it can, you understand, but we do know that early neutering can result in problem with joints, and irregular growth patterns.

borderlinemeath

Benson is the wooliest setter I've ever seen, but he had mange and clumps of his hair fell out with it. His groomer said he was neutered too soon after it without any chance of his coat growing back properly at all. You can see it in this pic and while Coco is also neutered, we didn't get her done til she was 4.

Whispered

Knine wrote: »

Neutering is great for certain situations such as rescues, behaviour issues etc but if a dog is well adjusted, well behaved pet then I personally would leave it entire. I am talking about males here. Bitches are imo worse to manage then the dogs! In fact if someone comes to me starting out showing I always recommend they start with a dog!

I would agree to a point.

If I was doing it again and didn't have a rehoming contract I'd leave the dog until older. Harley was done at 6 months and is an anxious boy and can be reactive when other dogs are anxious too. (He met an entire rottie recently, a very self assured fella and there was absolutely no issue). I'm not purely putting it down to early neutering as he had a few things go against him which could make him the anxious fella he is, but I'm sure it didn't help.

However, I would still consider getting it done a bit later. Even with two neutered males I can see the change in them when around a bitch in heat. If they go to the kennels, I can tell when they come back if one of his bitches is in heat by their behaviour. The bitch next door recently had her first heat and it was tough for both of them.

I can see your point, I think you have to consider the fact that many people would not have the know how and experience, and in some cases the cop on, to handle the issues that can come with an unneutered dog, as you do. I'd rather see "the general public" (including myself in there) do it rather than not do it. When (wishful thinking) we have the total overbreeding of dogs under control I think it's something that should definitely be more widely discussed by vets, owners, rescues etc. But for now I feel it's a good idea to keep/make neutering the norm.

As an aside, can anyone in rescue tell me; say I was adopting a dog from you and I mentioned that neutering was fine, but I'd rather wait until after a year, would you accept that? What if you had a perfect home lined up but the new owner was reluctant to neuter at all, for the reasons Knine mentioned, would you still consider it?

Nody

Whispered wrote: »

As an aside, can anyone in rescue tell me; say I was adopting a dog from you and I mentioned that neutering was fine, but I'd rather wait until after a year, would you accept that? What if you had a perfect home lined up but the new owner was reluctant to neuter at all, for the reasons Knine mentioned, would you still consider it?

I think all the contracts I've seen has stated that neutering is mandatory (and in many cases they come neutered in the first place). An experienced dog owner may be allowed as an exception but look at it from a rescue point of view what person is more likely to want an uneutered dog? A BY breeder or someone at Knine's level of knowledge (because once someone has that level of knowledge chances are they want a pure breed with proper health checks, papers etc.)?

borderlinemeath

Puppies are adopted out of rescues with contracts for neutering/spaying at a certain age so you might be able to get an extentsion on a contract with perhaps the agreement of the rescue vet who will ensure the neutering is one as per contract but perhaps by 2 years of age rather than the 6 months that a lot of rescues stipulate. I think you would have to overwhelmingly prove that you were a responsible owner and that it was the dogs health interests at heart.

muddypaws

Knine wrote: »

Certain breeds are much more prone to coat changes then others - collies, spaniels, wire coated, retrievers. Their coats can be come very woolly afterwards. People often say their dogs coat did not change but are then surprised when they see the coat on an non altered dog.

Many terrier or gundog breeds can't be hand stripped afterwards. There is no comparison between a hand stripped example of a breed & one who has been clipped.

It is important I believe that people see both pros & cons.

I have heard that about the coat from a number of sources, and completely accept the point.

Whispered wrote: »

I would agree to a point.

If I was doing it again and didn't have a rehoming contract I'd leave the dog until older. Harley was done at 6 months and is an anxious boy and can be reactive when other dogs are anxious too. (He met an entire rottie recently, a very self assured fella and there was absolutely no issue). I'm not purely putting it down to early neutering as he had a few things go against him which could make him the anxious fella he is, but I'm sure it didn't help.

However, I would still consider getting it done a bit later. Even with two neutered males I can see the change in them when around a bitch in heat. If they go to the kennels, I can tell when they come back if one of his bitches is in heat by their behaviour. The bitch next door recently had her first heat and it was tough for both of them.

I can see your point, I think you have to consider the fact that many people would not have the know how and experience, and in some cases the cop on, to handle the issues that can come with an unneutered dog, as you do. I'd rather see "the general public" (including myself in there) do it rather than not do it. When (wishful thinking) we have the total overbreeding of dogs under control I think it's something that should definitely be more widely discussed by vets, owners, rescues etc. But for now I feel it's a good idea to keep/make neutering the norm.

As an aside, can anyone in rescue tell me; say I was adopting a dog from you and I mentioned that neutering was fine, but I'd rather wait until after a year, would you accept that? What if you had a perfect home lined up but the new owner was reluctant to neuter at all, for the reasons Knine mentioned, would you still consider it?

It is a hard one, as I was getting dogs neutered before rehoming at an early age, but then waiting with my own dogs. Unfortunately though, unless I knew the person extremely well, and down to the fact that people lie alot when it comes to rescue dogs, I'd have to say no. The other thing to consider I guess, and it depends how broad your shoulders are, if other rescues find out you're rehoming un-neutered dogs, watch your back!

Although, some dogs can't be neutered for medical reasons, so its not unheard of, I wonder how well managed those adoptions are.

DBB

Whispered wrote: »

What if you had a perfect home lined up but the new owner was reluctant to neuter at all, for the reasons Knine mentioned, would you still consider it?

For me, under those terms alone, it'd be a non-runner. I think most rescues make it clear to potential adopters that the dog *will* be neutered prior to rehoming, so the potential adopter knows that them's the roolz before they ever begin the process. It simply doesn't happen that they get to change the rules in the middle of the process. They come to you accepting the T&Cs in advance.

As for wanting to wait til the dog was 1 yr old, this could only arise with people who get puppies or sub-adults. In my case at least, and I know not all rescues have this luxury, I would only adopt a pup out to a very trusted adopter, often one who had adopted from me before. We pre-agree a date by which the pup must be done, and a contract signed to that effect.

There are occasions where older dogs aren't neutered... They might be too old or have a medical condition that surgery would be an unacceptable risk. But by and large the people who adopt these dogs are fundamentally not the type to let them out to sow their oats anyway!

Whispered

muddypaws wrote: »

The other thing to consider I guess, and it depends how broad your shoulders are, if other rescues find out you're rehoming un-neutered dogs, watch your back!
.

I never even thought of that!

DBB wrote: »

As for wanting to wait til the dog was 1 yr old, this could only arise with people who get puppies or sub-adults. In my case at least, and I know not all rescues have this luxury, I would only adopt a pup out to a very trusted adopter, often one who had adopted from me before. We pre-agree a date by which the pup must be done, and a contract signed to that effect.

You can't say fairer than that really.

kylith

Knine wrote: »

I have a lot of dogs. The dogs that are done (males) just do not have the drive, coat or stamina of their entire companions. They would still mate a bitch too.

But does that actually matter a damn for the regular, everyday, owner on the street who will not be working or showing their dog? If you walk your dog for, say, an hour a day then it's of no consequence to you that he's not able to go for 4 hours? If you don't plan on showing him then what does it matter if his coat isn't 100% as per breed spec? For me, certainly, getting a bit woolly wouldn't be a reason for me not to neuter. Not when the possible downsides of not neutering include unwanted puppies, straying, and testicular cancer.

Frigga_92

DBB wrote: »

Your other concerns aside for a moment 26sdrawkcab, puppies humping is not really a sign that they're becoming sexually mature early, it's more of an exploratory motor pattern that they often go through as part of their nomal behavioural development.
I just wanted to say this in case it helps you make a decision! I *think*, if I owned a dax, I'd be doing more research in case their back problems can be exacerbated by early neutering... I'm not saying it can, you understand, but we do know that early neutering can result in problem with joints, and irregular growth patterns.

Ah okay, I was seeing it as possible sexual maturity. I've never had a dog that humps so I just don't know much about it.

I've done a bit of reading about the back problems and growth problems associated with neutering so that's obviously one of the big factors for me and something I'll chat to the vet about. No rush anyway as I've no concerns about them getting near a bitch in heat.

boomerang

As an aside, can anyone in rescue tell me; say I was adopting a dog from you and I mentioned that neutering was fine, but I'd rather wait until after a year, would you accept that? What if you had a perfect home lined up but the new owner was reluctant to neuter at all, for the reasons Knine mentioned, would you still consider it?[/quote]

No, I wouldn't take the risk of aan accidental litter in the interim and who is to say you might change your mind and decide against neutering altogether.

Have a male and female westie that I didn't want to breed from. Vet recommended neutering bitch, as doing the dog could lead to prostate problems in later life.

Tranceypoo

Knine wrote: »

Doubtful really? I would safely say there are far more entire males around then unspayed bitches.

I can also say sadly that there have been far too many young males of my favourite breed who did not see age 5 because they were neutered early in life!

The OP has not had any problems to date with his dog.

I have a lot of dogs. The dogs that are done (males) just do not have the drive, coat or stamina of their entire companions. They would still mate a bitch too.

I wasn't really commenting on whether the OP should have his dog neutered or not (I think there's arguments on both sides, as long as he's not breeding), just on your comment about most people have spayed females, that is absolutely 100% not my experience where I live now, where I lived before and in the context of meeting people on fundraising days and events for the rescue I volunteer for. Would that it were!

DBB

Deleted User wrote: »

Have a male and female westie that I didn't want to breed from. Vet recommended neutering bitch, as doing the dog could lead to prostate problems in later life.

If I had a male and a female dog, and only wanted to get one of them neutered, I'd absolutely get the female done!
There are more health problems associated with leaving a female intact compared to leaving a male intact, and in any case, asking even a neutered male to live with an in-heat female can lead to a lot of stress for the male... when a neutered male is living right under the nose of an in-heat female, they often still get the urges (somewhat watered down, but there all the same), I presume because even in the absence of testicles, testosterone continues to be produced in small quantities by the adrenal medulla.
Some prostate problems are associated with neutering the male, and some prostate problems are associated with not neutering the male, so again it's a bit of a cost-benefit analysis for the owner. As long as the decision is a well-informed one, then the owner is doing a good job