Bicycle Safety (permit) - GOV Legislative proposal by Cluelez

cluelez

Hello all cyclists,

I wish to propose here for a new type of permit ''Bicycle Safety'', permit which would be necessary for some of citizens to obtain in order to use bicycles in Ireland.

I wish to open up this discussion and the I'm pretty sure Irish Government would be happy to consider this as a future addition to Road Traffic Act.

Enjoy the read below (extract from Polish interpretation of Polish Law):



Bicycle Safety
Bicycle Safety - according to the law on vehicle drivers one of the documents confirming the right of a minor to drive your bike *. Charter cycling can be obtained after reaching the age of 10 and passed an examination. These exams are usually carried out in schools. The card is issued free of charge.

Since adults do not require a license for driving a bicycle.

Bicycle Card also entitles after the age of 15, to drive chariot (eg wagon).

*To drive your bike through the minor entitles the license categories AM, A1, B1 or T card and mopeds. The holder of one of these documents is not required to obtain a separate card cycling.


Bicycle Safety is a two-sided cardboard pink color of the form, there is a photograph and personal details of the holder, which can be both a bicycle and motorbike card. The relevant authority is a round seal of the school. Letterhead is imprinted with the number and series. In addition, another part of the card number given at the school. Charter shall sign and seal the director of the school. The student directed by bicycle or moped shall carry a card and show it at the request of an authorized body.

To get the card cycling a minor must:

Acquire adequate knowledge
Pass your theory test in the form of a written test
Pass a practical exam involving crossing a designated bike route in accordance with the rules of the road
Obtain written consent from parents
Be at least 10 years
The practical test of the Charter cycle path might look like this;

Getting on a bicycle in traffic on the section 1-3 m
Stopping in front of the line and again en masse from space
Turning left with an outstretched hand
Driving between two lines of 5 m long interval of 25 cm.
Driving between two lines with one hand on the steering wheel
slalom
Turning right with outstretched hand
Driving along the lines of looking at changes in the right and left
Driving along the lines of looking at changes to the left and to the back
Stopping at a fixed location
Quick stop on the whistle

additional read:

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law

daragh_

_ snip - edited in response to edit by OP _

Interesting idea. I'm in favour of bike skills training in schools.

cluelez

I knew it...

(I have removed this unnecessary joke)

Enjoy the thread!

Inquitus

In Poland anyone over 18 years is exempt. Seems like a terrible waste of time and effort which would have zero impact on anything.

cluelez

Inquitus wrote: »

In Poland anyone over 18 years is exempt. Seems like a terrible waste of time and effort which would have zero impact on anything.

Road Safety rules for minors - waste of time?

- For some. Maybe.

For me. Not a waste of time.

mal1

Like Helmets, the introduction of any legislation will only deter potential cyclists. The health impact to the general population can only be negative. In general, bad cycling is an annoyance, not a major risk to the general road user.

Cookie_Monster

That is not how it's done in civilised countries.

And what about people under 10, **** them?

cluelez

loyatemu

seems daft, but out of curiosity what does this permit entitle you to do - cycle on the roads?

how do small children learn to ride their bikes - do they need the permit first?

what happens if a kid is caught cycling without a permit?

cluelez

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

And what about people under 10

Children under 10 years of cycling
If your child can already walk without a bike, but not over 10 years may drive a bike, but only under the supervision of an adult.


 
What is very important - in accordance with Article 2 of the Highway Code a child under the age of ten bike is a direct pedestrian. From this it follows that it can not move on the public road, but only on the sidewalk, footpath.

An adult who takes care of a child can go next to him on the sidewalk, or ride a bike - even on the sidewalk. Article 33, section 5 allows cycling on the pavement by an adult, just in case, when taking care of a child under the age of 10

In conclusion, children under the age of 10 may drive a bicycle, provided that:

are under the care of an adult
ride takes place on the sidewalk
Legal basis:


Law on Road Traffic

Section I

General Provisions

Article 2

18) Foot - a person located outside the vehicle on the road and not performing its work or activities provided by separate regulations; for pedestrians shall also be the person who conducts, pulling or pushing a bicycle, moped, motorcycle, stroller, handheld or disability, the person moving in a wheelchair, as well as a person under the age of 10 years heading the bike under the supervision of an adult;

branch 11
Additional provisions for the movement of bicycles, mopeds and vehicles sled


Article 33

Hmmzis

Woohoo, Friday thread!!!


Dammit, just realised it's only Thursday.

Chips Lovell

Sounds like a good idea OP. There were more training programmes for kids here in the 1980s but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Good luck with your campaign.

Cookie_Monster

cluelez wrote: »

Law on Road Traffic

Section I

General Provisions

Article 2

18) Foot - a person located outside the vehicle on the road and not performing its work or activities provided by separate regulations; for pedestrians shall also be the person who conducts, pulling or pushing a bicycle, moped, motorcycle, stroller, handheld or disability, the person moving in a wheelchair, as well as a person under the age of 10 years heading the bike under the supervision of an adult;

branch 11
Additional provisions for the movement of bicycles, mopeds and vehicles sled


Article 33

random meaningless out of context quote, so what's it supposed to refer to?

loyatemu

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea OP. There were more training programmes for kids here in the 1980s but they seem to have fallen by the wayside.

have they? My kids school runs cycle training courses every year, there was one recently in the local leisure centre too.

Lumen

cluelez wrote: »

this is how it's done in civilized countries

I dunno, forcing children to carry identification papers to be presented to "an authorized body" isn't my idea of civilization.

There's a whiff of something about it.

cluelez

loyatemu wrote: »

seems daft, but out of curiosity what does this permit entitle you to do - cycle on the roads?

how do small children learn to ride their bikes - do they need the permit first?

what happens if a kid is caught cycling without a permit?

Children up to 7 years on a bike
Children under 7 can be transported in two ways:

cycling in a child seat. (Article 33, paragraph 2) PORD)
in a special trailer towed behind a bicycle
Both the seat and the trailer must be adapted to carry children.

Law on Road Traffic

Article 33

Children aged 2 to 7 years can be carried on a bicycle, provided that it is placed in an extra saddle for safe driving.

loyatemu wrote: »

how do small children learn to ride their bikes - do they need the permit first?

parental supervision, not allowed on public roads

loyatemu wrote: »

what happens if a kid is caught cycling without a permit?

depends at what age and where is caught (e.g. drinking cycling, cycling on the public road, cycling on the footpath etc)...

Chips Lovell

loyatemu wrote: »

have they? My kids school runs cycle training courses every year, there was one recently in the local leisure centre too.

I know there's ones still around, such as Cycling Ireland's Sprocket Rocket etc. But state backed stuff like the Garda traffic school in Clontarf is gone as far as I know.

cluelez

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

random meaningless out of context quote, so what's it supposed to refer to?

sorry - just amended the post. Thanks !

loyatemu

well, I'm sold. children cycling bikes are a menace and something must be done to control them and reduce the carnage.

Cookie_Monster

cluelez wrote: »

In conclusion, children under the age of 10 may drive a bicycle, provided that:

are under the care of an adult
ride takes place on the sidewalk
Legal basis:

I call BS on that. You're implying no child outside of a town is allowed on the road just because there are no footpaths (not sidewalks).

in accordance with Article 2 of the Highway Code a child under the age of ten bike is directing pedestrians

That also makes no sense, how is the child 'directing pedestrians'

Kinky Slinky

At this rate you'll have to wear a yellow vest around your own home in a few years.

cluelez

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I call BS on that. You're implying no child outside of a town is allowed on the road just because there are no footpaths (not sidewalks).

That also makes no sense, how is the child 'directing pedestrians'

Apologies - google translation.

It should be: DIRECT PEDESTRIAN

cluelez

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I call BS on that. You're implying no child outside of a town is allowed on the road just because there are no footpaths (not sidewalks).

No- you're reading it wrong.

Child is allowed (under parental supervision).

Please don't take me wrong. The complete legislation can be obtained from Polish GOV. - and then can be translated (certified translation would be advisable)

I just copied partial info from Polish website and translated it in google translation engine.

I didn't fully read the translated text - apologies.


Common sense of general idea of bicycle safety should prevail.

Surely Poland is very different country to Ireland and it's infrastructure is also very different, which would ask for local, specific to Ireland amendments.

It's just an idea.

cormacjones

Is there an issue in this country with children on bikes being in a disproportionately high number of accidents?

Have you compared figures versus Poland and the rest of Europe?

cluelez

cormacjones wrote: »

Is there an issue in this country with children on bikes being in a disproportionately high number of accidents?

I think it's more to do with awareness.

cormacjones wrote: »

Have you compared figures versus Poland and the rest of Europe?

I think it's not that relevant as each European country until creation of EU have had it's own laws and rules.

I would think that if EU would completely standardize it's laws e.g. such as this one, then in e.g. 5-10 years time, such comparison would make more sense.

cormacjones

cluelez wrote: »

I think it's more to do with awareness.



I think it's not that relevant as each European country until creation of EU have had it's own laws and rules.

I would think that if EU would completely standardize it's laws e.g. such as this one, then in e.g. 5-10 years time, such comparison would make more sense.

Eh? So is the point of the initiative to make cycling safer for children or just create awareness??

Surely it would make sense to compare now, before standardization? Or am I missing something obvious?

Harrybelafonte

How they do it in "civilised countries" eh? Introduce children to the concept of bureaucracy as early as possible?

Schools are already introducing some sort of training themselves or via the RSA. An encouragement of this approach might have greater results than the introduction of an overly complicated system that risks discouraging the uptake of cycling, not by kids so much as the parents who would have to deal with the system.

cluelez

cormacjones wrote: »

Eh? So is the point of the initiative to make cycling safer for children or just create awareness??

Surely it would make sense to compare now, before standardization? Or am I missing something obvious?

Ok - we can compare now and later.

We can try to make cycling safer for children and we can create awareness.

I'm sure there are many many more points to add.

I'm not trying to ''catch'' something here. I'm just giving a positive and educational information which can be incorporated to local citizens life - for safer living.

Don't take me wrong.

cluelez

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

How they do it in "civilised countries" eh? Introduce children to the concept of bureaucracy as early as possible?

Schools are already introducing some sort of training themselves or via the RSA. An encouragement of this approach might have greater results than the introduction of an overly complicated system that risks discouraging the uptake of cycling, not by kids so much as the parents who would have to deal with the system.

Every system has it's positive and negative aspects.

Some kids would entertain the element of education and some would enjoy the element of competition, some kids will take something else from it...

Parents, adults - more jobs... - isn't that what's a positive aspect for the adults?

Daroxtar

I would argue that Ireland has among the lowest rates of cycling related child fatalities in Europe and indeed the whole world, bettered only by Vanuatu and Antarctica * and therefore other countries should follow our example instead of us following theirs.










*Some facts and figures may be bullish!t in keeping with the original proposal

Harrybelafonte

cluelez wrote: »

Every system has positive and negative aspects.

Some kids would entertain the element of education and some would enjoy the element of competition, some kids will take something else from it...

Parents, adults - more jobs... - isn't that what's a positive aspect for adults?

No. Cycling Ireland already run the Sprocket Rocket scheme, and there are other methods as I already mentioned.

Have you provided any data on how successful this scheme has been in Poland? The differences in demographics or infrastructure between the countries?

We could introduce the japanese system where everyone is allowed cycle on footpaths too.

Anyway, it's a ridiculous system and I now out of the debate cos it's basically pointless.

cluelez

Daroxtar wrote: »

I would argue that Ireland has among the lowest rates of cycling related child fatalities in Europe and indeed the whole world, bettered only by Vanuatu and Antarctica * and therefore other countries should follow our example instead of us following theirs.










*Some facts and figures may be bullish!t in keeping with the original proposal

I'm actually thinking that early teaching kids would eventually result in less accidents when they become adults...

How Irish adult road fatalities stand vs other countries? Even if the data is low, why not lower it further with an early education?

Cookie_Monster

cluelez wrote: »

It's just an idea.

maybe you should take your idea away and actually think about it for a while. you might realise how ridiculous it is.
It bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and also gives the false impression that cycling is more dangerous than it actually is and requires all sorts of ridiculous restrictions and licensing. All you are attempting to do is try and reduce the appeal of cycling at a societal level for the sake of the 'won't somebody think of the children' mentality.

Seweryn

Daroxtar wrote: »

I would argue that Ireland has among the lowest rates of cycling related child fatalities in Europe and indeed the whole world...

And don't we all know why is that :pac:.

Beasty

cluelez wrote: »

Hello all Irish cyclists,

Got this far before I realised this thread is not for me ....:D

flatface

It would be great to see a push in all schools to target increases in numbers of students cycling for transport (and even recreation, competition). They could come up with some clever ways to do this including training.

I would of course welcome any cycling skills training offered youngsters as also a big positive to encouraging more cycling.

The rest I'm afraid I just can't see as addressing any need, or current safety issues. I see no need to legislate or bureaucratise the current situation and would imagine it would only have a negative impact on kid's cycling numbers.

A lot of adults have been converted with the very benefitial BikeToWork scheme into cycling adults for transport and leisure, and these are all set to teach the next generation the necessary road skills, and kick them up the arse to get out on their bike.

cluelez

Beasty wrote: »

Got this far before I realised this thread is not for me ....:D

I just made it for you now.

Carawaystick

This is madness.

Little Miss Carawaystick learned to cycle on a road ( a quiet housing estate cul-de-sac) and we took her stabilisers off before she was 5. Taught be her parents, you know her primary educators.

Cycling on the footpath is illegal, and for competent cyclists wrong. Telling someone who has been cycling for over 5 years they can only cycle on the footpath is bad for pedestrians, and young cyclists, and the owners of vehicles parked on paths, narrowing the space for young cyclists to get by without keying their cars.

Needing permission to cycle is madness. What next? needing permission to walk?



There is also the cost of bureacracy any scheme would entail. Who pays? Do you want to move one of the cheapest cleanest and healthiest forms of transport out of the reach of the poorest? Or should general taxation be wasted on paying for the scheme?

There is also the health benefit of cycling, reducing cycling would disimprove the nations health.

Saipanne

Anything that encourages safer cycling is a good idea.

flatface

Carawaystick wrote: »

Taught be her parents, you know her primary educators

+1

Some people seem to constantly want to kick responsibility for basic tuition onto schools, government schemes or legislation.

Teaching kids to swim and cycle seems like one of the easy jobs in comparison to the rest!

ThisRegard

I dunno, while I supervise my kids under this new scheme I'd have hours of entertainment popping the bubbles.
I'm in.

NamelessPhil

cluelez wrote: »

Children up to 7 years on a bike
Children under 7 can be transported in two ways:

cycling in a child seat. (Article 33, paragraph 2) PORD)
in a special trailer towed behind a bicycle
Both the seat and the trailer must be adapted to carry children.

Law on Road Traffic

Article 33

Children aged 2 to 7 years can be carried on a bicycle, provided that it is placed in an extra saddle for safe driving.

Do you want to come and pry my 5 year-old's bike from her warm and sticky hands? :eek:

You'll be met by a tantrum of eardrum shattering proportions if you try and suggest that she gives up her independence to go back to a child seat.

ezra_pound

The Dutch and Danish cycling culture is far so superior to polish. Why should we want to emulate what Poland has done with cycling when we have much better peers to learn from?

I can see no benefits to this but many problems such as a reduction in cyclist numbers and administrative costs.

TonyStark

cluelez wrote: »

Hello all cyclists,


Bicycle Safety
..
..
..
..

Turning left with an outstretched hand
Turning right with outstretched hand

Jesus!

cluelez

TonyStark wrote: »

Jesus!

no comment

Hmmzis

cluelez wrote: »

no comment

Well, signaling is done in advance of the turn, during the turn both hands should be on the bars. Otherwise if you hit even a small pebble or irregularity in the road surface there is a high chance of the front wheel slipping. The inside hand is the one that provides the stability and control when turning a bike.

Dermot Illogical

I'm all for training kids to ride bikes. I taught my kids to ride theirs, and they had further training in school. I'm not against any of that.

But...I have nothing but contempt for the petty, interfering, rubber-stamping, jobsworth mentality that comes up with a suggestion like the OP's. As for trying to pass it off as a safety measure? PMSL!
What next? Will there be a checklist of legalities to be conformed with before a child can ride a bike? Obviously hi-viz will have an acceptable range of luminosity, but will mandatory helmets need to be colour-coded? Perhaps by neighbourhood so that authorities can determine that the child hasn't wandered too far. And will the legal papers contain medical information as well? It would seem that they should so that a person of authority can satisfy themselves, by cross-referencing against current blood stocks in hospitals, that the child hasn't got a blood group that's running low. It would obviously be unsafe for a child to continue cycling in such an event. Should we arrest children for not carrying their papers? There wouldn't seem to be much point to the whole idea if not. In that case it would seem prudent to take all arrested children immediately to a retraining facility. It would be a very efficient use of resources, and would eliminate recidivism completely. Which is nice.

Bloggsie

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

At this rate you'll have to wear a yellow vest around your own home in a few years.

with a helmet & a safety harness!

No Pants

Training? Yes please.

Not seeing the point of a licence at all. I'd go so far as to say that not letting a kid on a bike until they're ten puts them at a disadvantage, maybe they'll have lost interest in cycling by then.