kettle boiling sound from immersion cylinder

Andy From Sligo

does a kettle boiling sound from a copper immersion cylinder always means that there is limescale on the electric element? - I have the stat set to 55-60c but when on sink switch and before reaching temperature there is a sound of when kettle boiling - could expansion pipe from immersion cylinder in hot-press to header tank in loft be blocked with limescale or something, would that make it give the sound of a boiling kettle?

Dtp1979

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

does a kettle boiling sound from a copper immersion cylinder always means that there is limescale on the electric element? - I have the stat set to 55-60c but when on sink switch and before reaching temperature there is a sound of when kettle boiling - could expansion pipe from immersion cylinder in hot-press to header tank in loft be blocked with limescale or something, would that make it give the sound of a boiling kettle?

I've often seen the outlet fitting on the top of the cylinder close to the with of 1 mm with limescale. It'd be as hard as a rock too. But anytime I hear the hissing it's usually lime on the element

Sleeper12

It's called kettleing & it only happens with limescale. You need a new element. While it's a killer having to pay €130ish to get it replaced, remember that you will save money in the long run. Right now you are paying to heat the limescale first.


New element will save you money & heat the water much quicker.

clint_silver

hope you dont mind me hijacking this thread a little.

can the limescale be removed? my main house has this problem, new water softener coming soon, will that help with the scale thats there already or is once the scale there its impossible to remove?

Sleeper12

clint_silver wrote: »

hope you dont mind me hijacking this thread a little.

can the limescale be removed? my main house has this problem, new water softener coming soon, will that help with the scale thats there already or is once the scale there its impossible to remove?

No it won't. Replace the element. You will save a small fortune in the long run.

clint_silver

Thanks. What's the normal cost of that?

Sleeper12

clint_silver wrote: »

Thanks. What's the normal cost of that?

I haven't changed an element in a few years but my guess is €130 should cover it. If it far out someone will correct me pretty quickly.

Andy From Sligo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I haven't changed an element in a few years but my guess is €130 should cover it. If it far out someone will correct me pretty quickly.

i bought a dual element out of heatmerchants a few years back and it cost around €35 including vat. Make sure it has a over temp cut out inside the lid - they all should have them now, if the normal stat fails in the 'on' position the safety cut out will operate and prevent overheating/burn out/fire

Sleeper12

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

i bought a dual element out of heatmerchants a few years back and it cost around €35 including vat. Make sure it has a over temp cut out inside the lid - they all should have them now, if the normal stat fails in the 'on' position the safety cut out will operate and prevent overheating/burn out/fire

sorry I thought he wanted a price supplied & fitted. My mistake.

Andy From Sligo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

sorry I thought he wanted a price supplied & fitted. My mistake.

no, your right - sorry my mistake ....

clint_silver

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I haven't changed an element in a few years but my guess is €130 should cover it. If it far out someone will correct me pretty quickly.

quick update on this. I got a guy who quoted supply and fit the element for 100e, when assessing he noticed the cylinder was corroded and recommended a new one, he did both jobs for 450. Based on reading other prices on here for similar work at around 5-550 I didnt think it too bad, job done, very happy so far.

Sleeper12

clint_silver wrote: »

quick update on this. I got a guy who quoted supply and fit the element for 100e, when assessing he noticed the cylinder was corroded and recommended a new one, he did both jobs for 450. Based on reading other prices on here for similar work at around 5-550 I didnt think it too bad, job done, very happy so far.

Well done. Now you'll save even more money with a foam insulated cylinder.

Andy From Sligo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Well done. Now you'll save even more money with a foam insulated cylinder.

yeah thats what i would do if we were changing ours, get a foam covered one

creedp

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's called kettleing & it only happens with limescale. You need a new element. While it's a killer having to pay €130ish to get it replaced, remember that you will save money in the long run. Right now you are paying to heat the limescale first.


New element will save you money & heat the water much quicker.

Sorry for jumping in here but I have what I think is a problem with my immersion but Im not sure. I've an appartment with night rate electricity and the immersion is timed to come on during the night. Recently each morning the rcd had been tripped during the night and when I flip it back up its fine again until the next morning. So I turned off the immersion timer and the RCD was fine the following morning. However, when I heat the water during the day using the boost the RCD isn't affected. There is a buzz from the element when on boost but nothing much to note. Is it possible that the element is gone? There are 2 elements - the upper one seems to be slightly more noisy that the lower one. I can't switch between the two as instead of the normal sink/bath & on/off switch there is a blank plate with both elements wired in directly. Could I check the elements separately by turning the thermostat down on one?

Any advice on what could be tripping the RCD would be appreciated.

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

Any advice on what could be tripping the RCD would be appreciated.

Faulty element would be a very likely scenario. A visual check would rule out loose wiring/ damaged wiring. If all looks well a resistance check with meter would confirm the health of the element.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Faulty element would be a very likely scenario. A visual check would rule out loose wiring/ damaged wiring. If all looks well a resistance check with meter would confirm the health of the element.

Thanks for this this. I not an electrician but have a resitance tester which I use to test the car battery from time to time. Could I use this to check the elements?

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

Thanks for this this. I not an electrician but have a resitance tester which I use to test the car battery from time to time. Could I use this to check the elements?

You can, isolate the power and put your meter across the live and neutral terminals of the element.
Say if its a 3000 watts element, divided by 230 volts gives a current of about 13 amps. Divide 230 volts by 13 amps and you get about 18 ohms. If your figure is in around it your element is good.

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Faulty element would be a very likely scenario. A visual check would rule out loose wiring/ damaged wiring. If all looks well a resistance check with meter would confirm the health of the element.

Would the faulty element not trip every time? Or could a faulty element trip intermittently?

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You can, isolate the power and put your meter across the live and neutral terminals of the element.
Say if its a 3000 watts element, divided by 230 volts gives a current of about 13 amps. Divide 230 volts by 13 amps and you get about 18 ohms. If your figure is in around it your element is good.

Thanks. Will give this a go and at least then I might be able to determine if an electrican or a plumber is required.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Would the faulty element not trip every time? Or could a faulty element trip intermittently?

It would be intermittent at the start but as the element deteriorates it would trip all the time.

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

It would be intermittent at the start but as the element deteriorates it would trip all the time.

Got ya. Thanks. ☺

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You can, isolate the power and put your meter across the live and neutral terminals of the element.
Say if its a 3000 watts element, divided by 230 volts gives a current of about 13 amps. Divide 230 volts by 13 amps and you get about 18 ohms. If your figure is in around it your element is good.

Tried this and get a reading of 18/19 from one and a steady 19 from the 2nd. In case I'm doing it wrong - the resistance meter is set at 2000 ohms. Does this mean the elements are not the problem and therefore I need an electrician? Could it be the thermostat?

creedp

creedp wrote: »

Tried this and get a reading of 18/19 from one and a steady 19 from the 2nd. In case I'm doing it wrong - the resistance meter is set at 2000 ohms. Does this mean the elements are not the problem and therefore I need an electrician? Could it be the thermostat?

Appreciate any views on the above? I'm trying to avoid having to get both an electrician and plumber if one would suffice. Thanks

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

Tried this and get a reading of 18/19 from one and a steady 19 from the 2nd. In case I'm doing it wrong - the resistance meter is set at 2000 ohms. Does this mean the elements are not the problem and therefore I need an electrician? Could it be the thermostat?

You could still have an insulation resistance issue though. A meggar is the best way to test this. It should give a live or neutral to earth reading in the megga ohm range. Have you access to a meggar meter?
If you don't what you could do to eliminate any issue with wiring down stream is swap the wiring on the elements if lengths of flex permits. ONLY do this if you are compentant to do it. MAKE sure you isolate the power before commencing work.
What should happen then if the element is faulty the boost will trip the rcd and the night will be back working as normal.
If you cannot swap supplies what you could do also is make up a fly lead i.e length of flex with plug top and connect other end to element and plug it in and see will rcd trip.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You could still have an insulation resistance issue though. A meggar is the best way to test this. It should give a live or neutral to earth reading in the megga ohm range. Have you access to a meggar meter?
If you don't what you could do to eliminate any issue with wiring down stream is swap the wiring on the elements if lengths of flex permits. ONLY do this if you are compentant to do it. MAKE sure you isolate the power before commencing work.
What should happen then if the element is faulty the boost will trip the rcd and the night will be back working as normal.
If you cannot swap supplies what you could do also is make up a fly lead i.e length of flex with plug top and connect other end to element and plug it in and see will rcd trip.

Thanks I'll try and swop the wiring - presumably you mean swop the wire on the top element to the bottom and vice versa? Would this still result in the rcd tripping if one of the elements is faulty?

I tried the boost yesterday for 40 minutes and the rcd didn't trip which is why I am unsure if the element is the problem.

I could try disconnecting one element at a time and see which, if any, element cause the rcd to trip.

After that I think I have no choice but to get an electrican to have a look and maybe then a plumber!

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

Thanks I'll try and swop the wiring - presumably you mean swop the wire on the top element to the bottom and vice versa? Would this still result in the rcd tripping if one of the elements is faulty?

Yea that is what i meant, it will result in tripping but what should happen now is when the night comes on it wont trip and the boost will. You said before it was tripping some time during the night so the rcd could be holding for a period of time before tripping.
Do the swap only if your comfortable working with electrics.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Yea that is what i meant, it will result in tripping but what should happen now is when the night comes on it wont trip and the boost will. You said before it was tripping some time during the night so the rcd could be holding for a period of time before tripping.
Do the swap only if your comfortable working with electrics.

I went to swop the wires but I needed a spanner/pliers to open the earth fitting - which I didn't have to hand. So I opened the front of the immersion timer switch and swopped the connections so that the lower element was connected to the boost and immediately I turned on power the rcd tripped. So presumably the bottom element is shot and given my DIY past I think I'll just get a plumber to sort it!

Thanks for advice.

Sir Arthur Daley

creedp wrote: »

So presumably the bottom element is shot and given my DIY past I think I'll just get a plumber to sort it!

Thanks for advice.

What you did there was equal to swapping at the elements, at least you have diagnosed now that the element is at fault. You could leave them swapped till you get it replaced to avail of the night rate but you would only be heating the upper part of the cylinder but it would be cheaper than using day time rates.
If you feel changing an immersion is beyond you better get a plumber as you say. At least you have saved a few euro in diagnosing element and only need to employ a electrician plumber now to change it for you.

creedp

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

What you did there was equal to swapping at the elements, at least you have diagnosed now that the element is at fault. You could leave them swapped till you get it replaced to avail of the night rate but you would only be heating the upper part of the cylinder but it would be cheaper than using day time rates.
If you feel changing an immersion is beyond you better get a plumber as you say. At least you have saved a few euro in diagnosing element and only need to employ a electrician plumber now to change it for you.

Good idea might just do that. I rang a plumber who was recommended and he suggested changing both elements together once the system is drained as the second element could also be coming to end of its life. Any idea what I should expect to be charged for this job?

Anyway thanks for help .. much appreciated!