Help Request

Ponster

Seeing as everyone seems to be online and ready to help today I thought that I'd post one of my 'brick walls'.

I'm looking for the birth details of a John Egan. This is what I know about him.

He died in 1931 in Clogheen, Tipperary. His death cert says that he dies at the age of 48, putting his date of birth about 1883.

He married Catherine Keating in 1915 at Ballylooby, Tipperary in the same parish where he died.

He had 4 children with Catherine: John, Thomas, Patrick and George.

In 1917 he signed up for the British Army and fought in France. From the surviving records I have a confirmation of his age. When he was discharged they gave his age as being 35 years and 180 days at the time of discharge which gives me Dec 1883. His pension request form also has his year of birth as 1883.



These snips from his records give his current location in 1917 as Ballylooby. And also seems to confirm his place as birth as also being Ballylooby, near the town of Cahir.

http://imgur.com/9bBTrF3

http://imgur.com/Pa0rk4t



I have his marriage cert and it gives his father's name as 'John Egan (deceased)'


When I look up RootsIreland for possible matches I found 1 John Egan born in 1883±2 in Cahir and zero in the surrounding parishes, including Ballylooby. I purchased the cert on Roots and it turns out that it was for a John Egan with father Thomas and mother Mary Davin from Newtownadam. The father's name doesn't match the information from the marriage cert from 1915 so I continued on. I found a John Egan from Clogheen reg district on new Civil Records site and ordered the cert. It turned out to be the same as the one that I had got from RootsIreland.


I checked on FamilySearch and there are 2 John Egans born in 1883 in the parish of Clogheen and both have identical GRO information. If I look on the new Civil Records site I can only find 1 reference to a John Egan/Clogheen/1883

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB42-WPT

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB42-6QS


If I check the census records I should be able to find an 18 year old John Egan in 1901 and a 28 year old in 1911 yet I don't see anyone obvious.






So perhaps the family legend that John Egan wasn't actually from the Cahir area but instead from north Tipp was true based on there being no obvious birth record for him available and that there is a John Egan in both census results that could match. He's 20 in 1901 and 30 in 1911 and a farm servant in north Tipperary each time.


The only thing that gets in the way of this theory is that I did a DNA test on 23andme and found a match in the US that listed us as possible 3rd/4th cousins. I asked the guy where his family were from and he said that his Egan line began in the US with the immigration of Thomas Egan and his wife Mary (Davin) from Newtownadam, Cahir! Now I understand that DNA testing isn't very accurate in terms of getting the exact relationships of distinct cousins, but I now have something that ties down my John Egan to the Cahir area.


I'm sorry if this came out as a rambling but I need to put it down to make sense of it and maybe someone will spot something obvious that I've missed. Not finding a birth cert for a John Egan around 1883 with father John in the area that I'm looking suggests that he's actually from elsewhere as the family story goes. But he told the military that he was born in Ballylooby (where he married) and I have a DNA match with a separate Egan family who live just 7 miles from Ballylooby suggesting that is he in fact from the area!?!

pinkypinky

Have you considered that the father's name is wrong on the marriage cert? He could have been John Thomas or Thomas John Egan...you could verify the parish record for the marriage.

Ponster

I can try that, yes (though not always easy when not living in Ireland). If we presume that I have the correct cert then we also have to then accept that Thomas and Mary went to the US leaving their son John behind who perhaps believed him to be dead.

Wyldwood

I second what Pinkypinky said about the father's name being wrong on the cert. I have a cert for my ggrandfather and both the father and son are in as John whereas the father was William.

Do you know when the family went to the US? Could John have been old enough to leave behind? Have you checked the US census records to see what they say about the family?

shanew

what are the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert - any other Egans ?

Ponster

shanew wrote: »

what are the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert - any other Egans ?

Hanna Keating (Catherine's sister) and Michael Ryan (who ended up marrying Hanna)

Ponster

Wyldwood wrote: »

Do you know when the family went to the US? Could John have been old enough to leave behind? Have you checked the US census records to see what they say about the family?

I've not investigated the US branch much to be honest. I'm in contact with this chap who has the DNA match so I'll try and find out from him.

Tom Egan and Mary Davin were married in 1883 and Mary would certainly have been at least 6 months pregnant with John at this stage.



EDIT: Contact from the USA. It appears that buried with Tom and Mary in the US is also John Egan (infant) died 1884. They reused the name at a later stage for another son. I'd say that this infant is the John for which I have the cert for.

shanew

There are Egan baptisms showing up in the RC parish, but strangely zero show up in the 5 years either side of 1883.

Pity there's no other Egan's mentioned. Which townland did your John live at at the time of his marriage and death ?

Ponster

Shane, Right next to the townland of Garyroan where Catherine Keating was from is Garryclogher where John was living in 1915 and up until his death in 1931.

shanew

my thinking was maybe they might have lived near where John was born... Garryroan townland is in Whitechurch civil parish so one of those covered by Ballyroan RC parish. Garryclogher townland, if I have the correct one, is Kilmore civil parish and seems to be much further north in Nenagh Reg. Dist.

I see several Keatings in Garryroan townland in 1901 and 1911, but no Egans

shanew

ah - I see a townland on the OSI map to the east of Garryroan townland in the next parish Caher, named Garrycloher...

shanew

No Egans unfortunately, but for ref. here's Garrycloher / Caher in 1901 and 1911

I had a quick look for Egans on Griffith's and the three civil parishes covered by Ballylooby RC parish (Whitechurch, Tubrid, and Tullaghorton), and no Egans listed at that time, but there are a few listed in Caher civil parish dated around 1852, both as occupiers and immediate lessors, but none of these seem to be at Garrycloher townland.

Ponster

Thanks Shane. My guess is that he moved to Gallycloher after the marriage. I've been to all the churches in the surrounding area and can find no other Egans buried there.


So I guess there'e either 2 possibilities :

1. John Egan was not born in Ballylooby nor in any of the surrounding areas. He possibly didn't know where he was born? In which case he may very well have some from further north in Tipperary and the only possible John Egan matching in the 1901/1911 census is possibly him. I'd be happy with this if I didn't know that John had some sort of close cousin in the Cahir area based on the 23andme test.

2. Hmm, I thought that there was a second one but can't remember it right now lol