More Rules

Seve OB

Captains last week (stapleford) and I got caught out.... twice!

First rule question
I hit a drive up left hand side into trees, not to deep, but it hit a tree hard and we saw nothing after that. Presumed it would be OK as it normally would be around there, but decided to hit provo just in case. Hooked that one, shorter and deeper into trees.

I went to roughly where first ball was and couldn't find it. Partner went to provo. He asked what were my balls and I told him quite clearly the difference between the two balls. He said he found my provo deep in trees, so I told him to just pick it up.

Turned out he picked up my first ball. It must have taken a savage deflection backwards off the tree. Tough luck I thought to myself, I should have checked it myself. Our other partner claimed he could replace it.. I didn't think so, but he did and I played out the hole (with the intention of checking after in the pro shop) and just missed the putt for a point so never bothered querying it.

Was I right or was partner right?


Second query.

When it's not your day you just have to get on with it!! I hit a cracking drive on 10. Almost to good, because there is a dogleg that is hard to reach and I went into the rough on the right. Not the end of the world there, it's actually an OK position, but I couldn't find it!! WTF???? Then I eventually found my ball, nestled in a falled branch. It wasn't just up against it, it was rightly tucked in there, leaves under the ball and the branch part was at the back where I would want to be striking.

So I had a good look and there was no way I was going to be able to shift the branch without moving the ball so I just struck it as it lay. Did well to move it about 10 yards.

Someone told me afterwards I could have gotten a free drop. I didn't think so, but I had thought about taking an unplayable lie penalty drop, but figured I had a chance of moving it a few yards by hitting it instead.... I was right, but if my drop had of been free I was wrong.

Dr_Colossus

Firstly to derail slightly, why was your Captain's a stableford competition? That's really sad and can only presume your current captain is a high handicapper with a grudge against the ultimate format which is stroke play.

Not looking up any rules and only going on intuition on the below so may not be correct but my thoughts would be as follows:
1) I think your partner was correct and that he could replace it allowing you to finish out the hole. My thinking would be that once it wasn't you that moved the ball then it could be replaced as found similar to if he'd moved the ball while searching or if he'd played your ball by mistake.
2) You are correct, don't see why you would be entitled to a free drop so your options would be to play as it lies like you did, take an unplayable penalty drop or replay the last shot under penalty of stroke and distance.

Whyner

STABLEFORD

Without looking anything up I would think he should be able to replace the first ball and you can play your second from there. I don't know though

Second, don't see why you'd be entitled to a free drop. In future, if someone gives you a ruling ask them for full details, easy enough to find out if they know the rule or are just passing on info they heard in the bar.

Whip out the rule book and check also, it's the quickest thing to do

John Divney

You could have moved the branch if it was not still hanging from the tree, but take the risk of moving the ball, which would be a one stroke penalty.

Seve OB

It's Stapleford cause as far as I remember it has always been Stapleford. 270 people play on the day so it keeps it moving, to do strokes would have a huge impact. We don't do qualifying or any of that malarky, so whoever wants to play will nearly always be accommodated. There is nothing Sad at all about it.

Interesting the thoughts on the first one, I genuinely thought it was gone once the ball was lifted. Can't find a rule for it though.

The second one, well the guys I was playing with were fine, it was just idle chit chat with someone after. I think that he may have been confused with man made objects. Eg if the ball finished in/on a crisp bag, I would get a free drop....(As far as I know?)

SnowDrifts

Second query

Since you said you could not remove the branch without causing your ball to move, your options are play it as it lies or take an unplayable under penalty.

First query

Now this is an interesting one that I'm not sure of. I checked the decisions and couldn't find anything. I would guess that, because you clearly told him the difference between your original and provisional, then he made a mistake in picking up the wrong ball even though acting under your instructions. Hence, replace without penalty. Again, I'm not sure.


Slightly off topic but whilst checking out the decisions for the above, I found the following beauty. You could imagine the song "bad day" playing in your head as you were about to hit your 7th

27-2b/9
Provisional Ball Lifted Subsequently Becomes Ball in Play

Q.In stroke play, a competitor, believing his tee shot might be lost, plays a provisional ball. He finds a ball he believes is his original ball, plays a stroke at it, picks up his provisional ball and then discovers that the ball he played was not his original ball, but rather a wrong ball. He resumes search for his original ball but cannot find it. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor lifted a ball which was to become the ball in play, i.e., the provisional ball – see Rule 27-2b. Accordingly, the competitor incurred a stroke-and-distance penalty under Rule 27-1 as a result of losing his original ball, a two-stroke penalty under Rule 15-3b for playing a wrong ball and a one-stroke penalty under Rule 18-2a for picking up his provisional ball. He is required to replace and play out the provisional ball. The competitor would be playing his seventh stroke.

GreeBo

Why did you get him to pick it up before you find the first one?you should have played the Provo abd then looked for the first ball.

Second case, fallen branch is a movable obstruction, Mark the ball, move the obstruction and replace the ball, no penalty.


Edit:
Natural things are not obstructions
Don't understand people but having a rule book during a competition, exactly for reasons like this.

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Second case, fallen branch is a movable obstruction, Mark the ball, move the obstruction and replace the ball, no penalty.

No, it's a loose impediment and not a movable obstruction and as such, you cannot avail of this relief.

Loose Impediments
“Loose impediments’’ are natural objects, including:

stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
dung, and
worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Why did you get him to pick it up before you find the first one?you should have played the Provo abd then looked for the first ball.

Second case, fallen branch is a movable obstruction, Mark the ball, move the obstruction and replace the ball, no penalty.

Don't understand people but having a rule book during a competition, exactly for reasons like this.

Provo ball in trees, would take 2 to get out, par 4, prob still 250 yards to green, stapleford comp....wasting time, so just pick it up. It was hard enough to give myself a chance for a point with the first ball!

So you are saying I could have actually had a free drop with my ball tucked up in the fallen branch? sorry, left my desk while in middle of reply and then see you have updated.

I'm after spending ages searching the rules on website for answers to both these question and found nothing.... to do that during a game of golf????

Seve OB

23-1 - Relief
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.
If the ball lies anywhere other than on the putting green and the removal of a loose impediment by the player causes the ball to move, Rule 18-2a applies.

18-2 - By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player's ball is in play, if:
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
lifts or moves the ball, 
touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or 
causes the ball to move, or
(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

GreeBo

stevieob wrote: »

23-1 - Relief
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.
If the ball lies anywhere other than on the putting green and the removal of a loose impediment by the player causes the ball to move, Rule 18-2a applies.

18-2 - By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player's ball is in play, if:
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
lifts or moves the ball, 
touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or 
causes the ball to move, or
(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

You could have broken up the branch and left the bits that would have caused the ball to move...touch and go though, but maybe worth it in some cases.

Whyner

Go on, say it again

What type of comp was it?

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

You could have broken up the branch and left the bits that would have caused the ball to move...touch and go though, but maybe worth it in some cases.

Actually, if it had of been in the winter and I had my Zippo Hand warmer with me, I could have dropped a bit of fuel on her and set it on fire, burn away the problem and hey presto.... hit a melted ball down towards the hole

Whyner wrote: »

Go on, say it again

What type of comp was it?

??????

LinksLad

"The Player" is you, and as it was a singles competition, you did not have a partner, you had an opponent.

Whyner

It's stableford, not stapleford

Arm yourself with a rule book and you'll be in a better place

Seve OB

LinksLad wrote: »

"The Player" is you, and as it was a singles competition, you did not have a partner, you had an opponent.

Whyner wrote: »

It's stableford, not stapleford

Arm yourself with a rule book and you'll be in a better place

I suppose that's another couple of rules I've broken :rolleyes:

SnowDrifts

LinksLad wrote: »

"The Player" is you, and as it was a singles competition, you did not have a partner, you had an opponent.

Whyner wrote: »

It's stableford, not stapleford

Very helpful and relevant lads, well played.

Corkblowin

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Very helpful and relevant lads, well played.

Linksland said nothing wrong.....you can't have a partner in a singles competition!

Having said that, when the player instructs an action to be taken - ie pick it up - then I believe he's the one to be penalised

SnowDrifts

Corkblowin wrote: »

Linksland said nothing wrong.....you can't have a partner in a singles competition!

It was irrelevant and had NOTHING to do with the questions being asked.

LinksLad

SnowDrifts wrote: »

It was irrelevant and had NOTHING to do with the questions being asked.

Read the wording of the rule again (18 - 2), SnowDrifts.

It was his opponent who lifted the ball.

SnowDrifts

LinksLad wrote: »

Read the wording of the rule again (18 - 2), SnowDrifts.

It was his opponent who lifted the ball.

When was the last Captains prize you played that was a fourball/foursomes? It was obvious from the OP's post that he meant his opponent but you just decided to be pedantic about it and went off on a tangent.

LinksLad

SnowDrifts wrote: »

When was the last Captains prize you played that was a fourball/foursomes? It was obvious from the OP's post that he meant his opponent but you just decided to be pedantic about it and went off on a tangent.

The rule quoted to the OP (18 - 2) may not be the relevant rule. That rule, as quoted seems to cover it if it was him or a partner who lifted the ball. Someone else lifted the ball, so what now? Is that player an outside agency or what? I don't know. Does anyone out there.

I'll try to read any replies carefully, so I don't go off on any irrelevant wild tangents, etc.:rolleyes:

Rikand

Ah lads, handbags please!

namloc1980

LinksLad wrote: »

The rule quoted to the OP (18 - 2) may not be the relevant rule. That rule, as quoted seems to cover it if it was him or a partner who lifted the ball. Someone else lifted the ball, so what now? Is that player an outside agency or what? I don't know. Does anyone out there.

18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie Or Equipment In Stroke Play
If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipment, moves the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced

In match play the ball is replaced except crucially the opponent is penalised 1 stroke on the hole if he moved someone else's ball deliberately.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Ah lads, handbags please!

leave moderating to the mods please

Whyner

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Very helpful and relevant lads, well played.

What's wrong with letting him know the correct name?

I already gave my opinion on the 2 points

Can't please everyone