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Property Management Issue

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  • 15-07-2014 12:04pm
    #1
    barbaragrace
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭


    Hi,

    I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment. I have lived in my apartment for 2 1/2 years. In the last year the Property Management of the Complex have strategically gone about bullying me out of there. Constant false claims and accusations. My blood really boiled over when my kryptonite bike lock was cut off because my bike was causing an obstruction, it wasnt. My landlord is perfectly happy with me as a tennant but at this point I'm really considering if it is worth it. In the last two days, they have changed the lock on our COMMUNAL terrace area so no one has access anymore. I moved into the apartment for many reasons, the beautiful terrace access was one of the reasons. I really don't know what to do about this. Any complaints I have made have been ignored and I really am at my wits end.

    If anyone could please shed some light on this and maybe what options I have?

    Thank you in advance.

    B Grace
    Tagged:


Comments

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    #2
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,432 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Any idea if the landlord is paying his fees? Where was your bike locked up?


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    #3
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    You need to take all your issues to your landlord. It is up to him to resolve them.

    The management agent has no obligation to deal with you directly, since you are not a member of the management company.


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    #4
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭OU812


    Irregardless of wether or not the landlord is paying his fees. The bike lock being cut off is criminal damage. I'd be getting a new one off them.


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    #5
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    That would depend on where the bike was parked and locked. While the OP may not think it's causing an obstruction, if it's a common area, then the OP has no right to park there. It is possible that the management agent had no way to know who owned the offending bike, so cut the lock and removed it. When the bike was collected, the OP was notified that it was causing an obstruction.


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    #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OU812 wrote: »
    Irregardless of wether or not the landlord is paying his fees. The bike lock being cut off is criminal damage. I'd be getting a new one off them.

    However if the bike was locked to something in a communal area where it shouldn't have been in the first place,then it may simply have been the management company taking steps to ensure the fire-safety of the complex.

    There are at least two sides to every story.

    The OP should pretty much have no communication with the Management Company, it should all be thru the landlord. I assume that this is why your comments have been ignored.


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    #7
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Paulw wrote: »
    That would depend on where the bike was parked and locked. While the OP may not think it's causing an obstruction, if it's a common area, then the OP has no right to park there. It is possible that the management agent had no way to know who owned the offending bike, so cut the lock and removed it. When the bike was collected, the OP was notified that it was causing an obstruction.
    The company would technically be permitted to break the lock if it's causing an obstruction that would be hazardous in the case of an emergency, but they will still have to replace it.

    If the bike was simply parked somewhere it's not supposed to be or creating a non-hazardous obstruction, the company do not have the authority to just break the lock without any notice or attempt to contact the owner. It would be like breaking into someone's car to move it because it's parked over two space instead of one.


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    #8
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    seamus wrote: »
    The company would technically be permitted to break the lock if it's causing an obstruction that would be hazardous in the case of an emergency, but they will still have to replace it.

    If the bike was simply parked somewhere it's not supposed to be or creating a non-hazardous obstruction, the company do not have the authority to just break the lock without any notice or attempt to contact the owner. It would be like breaking into someone's car to move it because it's parked over two space instead of one.

    That's not correct. If there are house rules forbidding keeping items, prams, bikes etc. in a particular area of the complex the management company are perfectly entitled to organise removal. Ignorance of the house rules is no excuse. The landlord should provide the tenant with a list of house rules on commencement of the tenancy.
    The tenant should communicate with his landlord. There is no obligation on the management company to negotitiate with the tenant


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    #9
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,220 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    That's not correct. If there are house rules forbidding keeping items, prams, bikes etc. in a particular area of the complex the management company are perfectly entitled to organise removal. Ignorance of the house rules is no excuse. The landlord should provide the tenant with a list of house rules on commencement of the tenancy.

    There's little point in attempting to "correct" a post while merely contrqdicting it. Contravening "house rules" does not permit a management company to contravene the law, in this case, Criminal Damage Act 1991. The management company needs a "lawful excuse" and causing damage to remove a dangerous obstruction could be one. Causing damage to enforce house rules would not be a lawful excuse.


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    #10
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    That's not correct. If there are house rules forbidding keeping items, prams, bikes etc. in a particular area of the complex the management company are perfectly entitled to organise removal. Ignorance of the house rules is no excuse. The landlord should provide the tenant with a list of house rules on commencement of the tenancy.
    The tenant should communicate with his landlord. There is no obligation on the management company to negotitiate with the tenant
    "Organise removal" is one thing. If they accidentally damage a pram or a bike in the processing of removing it, they are liable for that damage.
    If they intentionally cause damage in that process, this is criminal damage. A private company or individual needs a lawful excuse to cause wilful damage to another's property, and enforcement of house rules are not such a thing.


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    #11
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Health and safety is the most likely lawful excuse. I'm sure breach of contract (house rules) would also be part of their excuse.


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    #12
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    They are in the corridor and therefore a hazard. From the management company's perspective, that would be a pretty black and white reason to remove them


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    #13
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    The management company are allowed to remove any property in common areas where house rules indicate that property should not be there. There is no obligation on them to go chasing owners of the property. If a bicycle was causing obstruction or likely to cause obstruction to the movement of people in a common area the management company may remove the property. If damage is caused to a lock so be it. Examination of the lease will see that the management company have wide powers to be used in the management of the property. It is not a public place.


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    #14
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    They are in the corridor and therefore a hazard. From the management company's perspective, that would be a pretty black and white reason to remove them

    The management company would be neglectful of their duties if being aware of a possible health and safety hazard they did nothing about it.


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    #15
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    If damage is caused to a lock so be it.
    Yeah, that's not how the law works.

    If they damage the lock without lawful excuse, that's criminal damage.

    Even if they damage it with lawful excuse, they are still required to pay the replacement cost of it.


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    #16
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    seamus wrote: »
    Yeah, that's not how the law works.

    If they damage the lock without lawful excuse, that's criminal damage.

    Even if they damage it with lawful excuse, they are still required to pay the replacement cost of it.

    But lawful excuse is anything being left in a corridor or a walkway. Health and Safety don't you know


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    #17
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Not really, you would need to justify it. If the path is 3m wide with no walls on the opposite side, you can't justify breaking the lock to remove a bike on the basis of health & safety, for example. If the bike is locked to the railings on a wheelchair ramp, then you definitely can.

    What could theoretically be lawful excuse would be house rules which state that items left in the communal areas will be removed. Being a party to the house rules could construe "consent", which is covered as a lawful excuse. However, as a tenant the OP has no direct contract or agreement with the management company so this implied consent cannot exist.

    In any case this is a bit of a rabbit hole because it would be a monumental waste of everyone's time to pursue criminal damage charges over a €60 bike lock.

    The management company are civilly liable for the cost of this lock, however. And the OP should pursue that.


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    #18
    barbaragrace
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭barbaragrace


    Hi all,

    Thank you for all your replies.

    I can 100% confirm that my bike was NOT causing an obstruction nor did it breach health and safety measures. My lock that was cut off was left on the ground nearby (where small kids play). It was sharper than a knife and THIS in my opinion is much more dangerous and a much bigger issue. Thankfully though, I at least got my bike back. I have pictures of everything because this person has been so persistent in trying to upset me.

    My landlord absolutely pays all his fees. It is simply a person having taken a very strong disliking to me and I really don't know why. I'm just trying to get myself as educated on this matter as possible because I really need to take this further.

    Thank you all again.

    B Grace


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    #19
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,684 ✭✭✭jd


    I presume you mean a roof terrace? I've heard of them been closed off before because of the cost of insurance. Ask your landlord to find out - he is a member of the OMC.

    Whatever about them cutting the lock, had the Owners' Management Company (or their agent) been in contact with you previously regarding where you left the bicycle?


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    #20
    barbaragrace
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭barbaragrace


    No. We had absolutely no prior warning that this would happen our bikes nor was it ever stated anywhere that bikes weren't allowed in the area. I got up one morning to get my bike and it was gone, when I rang to see what had happened I was told then (and only then!) that my bike was not allowed to be kept there. 14 bike locks were cut off in total. The funniest thing is... Bikes are still being kept there! I keep mine in my apartment now. It's just all very strange in my opinion.


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    #21
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    If 14 people's bikes were removed, and access to the roof terrace is denied all tenants, this is not a case of you being bullied out of your tenancy, or someone doing these things because they have a dislike of you.
    Your Landlord can find out the reasons, but likely to be health and safety or insurance reasons, not a vendetta against you.


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    #22
    barbaragrace
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭barbaragrace


    I know what you are saying BUT all the other breaches of "house rules" go completely under the radar and any complaints I've made about noise or bin problems have never been fixed and never changed.

    The property manager has threatened me and said he will "get rid of me" - my only problem is it is my word against his. I have no witnesses as it was only the two of us. I think I may just go to a solicitor.


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    #23
    Meauldsegosha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭Meauldsegosha


    barbaragrace wrote: »
    I know what you are saying BUT all the other breaches of "house rules" go completely under the radar and any complaints I've made about noise or bin problems have never been fixed and never changed.

    The property manager has threatened me and said he will "get rid of me" - my only problem is it is my word against his. I have no witnesses as it was only the two of us. I think I may just go to a solicitor.

    You shouldn't be speaking to the property manager. If you have a complaint about noice or bins you should make them to your landlord. (S)He can then take it up with the management company.


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    #24
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    barbaragrace wrote: »
    I know what you are saying BUT all the other breaches of "house rules" go completely under the radar and any complaints I've made about noise or bin problems have never been fixed and never changed.

    The property manager has threatened me and said he will "get rid of me" - my only problem is it is my word against his. I have no witnesses as it was only the two of us. I think I may just go to a solicitor.

    Bikes are removed from corridors, railings etc in my apartment complex all the time. There was one notice, the first time, but not any more. Every few months a sweep is done and many many bikes are taken. Once the places where they were being kept start to fill up again, then anotyher sweep is done. TBH, that just seems like pretty normal apartment management. No vendetta at all.


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    #25
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    barbaragrace wrote: »
    No. We had absolutely no prior warning that this would happen our bikes nor was it ever stated anywhere that bikes weren't allowed in the area.

    In fairness, it's a condition in pretty much every complex.

    You should have expected it, and clarified with your landlord if there was any doubt. If you landlord gave you incorrect advice (eg yes, you can chain in there) then it's an issue to discuss with your landlord.


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    #26
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    barbaragrace wrote: »
    I know what you are saying BUT all the other breaches of "house rules" go completely under the radar and any complaints I've made about noise or bin problems have never been fixed and never changed.

    The property manager has threatened me and said he will "get rid of me" - my only problem is it is my word against his. I have no witnesses as it was only the two of us. I think I may just go to a solicitor.

    The Management Agents must really hate you if they cut down 13 other illegally stored bikes and blocked everyone's access to a communal terrace just to get you out.

    Most likely cause is the non payment of fees, not just your LL, and the MC has started to act to reduce their risk. While you may have thought that your bike was OK a fire officer inspection wouldn't agree, building have to comply with fire safety standards and very few builders exceeded the minimum requirements so any obstruction is an issue.


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    #27
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    You say in your the first post that the communal terrace was the main reason you moved in. Like Del2005 says, that terrace has probably been closed as they are cutting costs due to non payment of fees. Once closed, I doubt they will be in a hurry to open it again. The roof terrace of a place I lived in in London when I first moved here closed a few months in to my lease. And it never re-opened. So if that's the reason you are there, I'd be looking at finding alternative accomodation


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    #28
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I'd make a criminal complaint to an garda about the destruction of the lock, if just to get a pulse number, to back up a civil claim.
    There is also the moral point about letting the management company away with intentional breaches of the law.


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    #29
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Have you not read the thread? Nothing that the OP describes is abnormal for the management of an apartment complex. Even if it looks like a bike is not an obstruction, the fire rules would likely say otherwise. It would be in the LLs lease, and the LLs failure to tell the tenant that they can't keep their bike in a shared space is not the fault of the management company

    Any claim of the OP would be against the LL. I've told my tenants that they can't keep their bikes in the hallway. If they do, and the management company takes them with no warning, then tough


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    #30
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I'd make a criminal complaint to an garda about the destruction of the lock, if just to get a pulse number, to back up a civil claim.
    There is also the moral point about letting the management company away with intentional breaches of the law.

    Just a curiosity question - since the OP didn't witness the lock being cut, who would the civil case be against? The landlord, the management agent, the management company, or a potential third party hired by the management agent to carry out the work?

    Even to take a small claims court case for the price of the lock, the cost of taking it to court would be greater than the cost of the lock itself. :rolleyes:


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