Rule question ?

Dublin Spur

if your playing partner is tending the pin while you take a putt and if he/she does not remove the pin as the ball advances towards the hole, and if the put is holed with the pin in who faces the penatly ?

As I understand it:
It's the player taking the putt that gets penalised.
If this is correct, what is the logic behind this rule ?

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

if your playing partner is tending the pin while you take a putt and if he/she does not remove the pin as the ball advances towards the hole, and if the put is holed with the pin in who faces the penatly ?

As I understand it:
It's the player taking the putt that gets penalised.
If this is correct, what is the logic behind this rule ?

always the guy putting

its an advantage to putt with the pin in, hence the penalty

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

always the guy putting

its an advantage to putt with the pin in, hence the penalty

Seems a bit silly though as it is your playing partner who has made the mistake.

Dublin Spur

GreeBo wrote: »

always the guy putting

its an advantage to putt with the pin in, hence the penalty

Can something be defined as an advantage if it is optional and available to all players ?

Is teeing up the ball gaining an advantage or exercising an option ?

Also, It seems odd to me that a penalty could be given to a player based on the actions / in actions of another player.

I think it should be scrapped

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Seems a bit silly though as it is your playing partner who has made the mistake.

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Can something be defined as an advantage if it is optional and available to all players ?

Is teeing up the ball gaining an advantage or exercising an option ?

Also, It seems odd to me that a penalty could be given to a player based on the actions / in actions of another player.

I think it should be scrapped

Playing partner is acting under your instructions, they are essentially your caddy for the duration.

Its an advantage, thats currently not available in the rules of the game.
Im not sure what your point is tbh, kicking it out of the rough is an advantage available to all players also.

Dublin Spur

GreeBo wrote: »

Playing partner is acting under your instructions, they are essentially your caddy for the duration.

Its an advantage, thats currently not available in the rules of the game.
Im not sure what your point is tbh, kicking it out of the rough is an advantage available to all players also.

I don't see what purpose it serves

What is it trying to achieve or prevent ?

Eoinyh

Maybe if you answered his question, another argument could be avoided, : why is the person tending the flag not penalised? That's how I read his question, I may be wrong an don't mind admitting it

PARlance

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I don't see what purpose it serves

What is it trying to achieve or prevent ?

Why would you want to get rid of the rule? I've never seen nor heard of someone failing to remove it in time. Surely it's a rare enough thing to occur?

If you drop the rule then it's leaving wide open to a hell of a lot of "cuteness".

slave1

I could be wrong but is there not a rule where any player standing next to a pin is deemed to be tending and must remove the flag after partner has hit...

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

I could be wrong but is there not a rule where any player standing next to a pin is deemed to be tending and must remove the flag after partner has hit...

Yes the are deemed to be tending...as for the "must" part...

It's not a penalty for the person tending as then I could whack my ball at the flag as they are removing it. You can't have a situation where I can cause someone else to incur a penalty and they're is nothin they can do about it. With the current rule I can just remove the flag myself.

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I don't see what purpose it serves

What is it trying to achieve or prevent ?

Someone had to be penalised, you hit it so you are penalised.

Eoinyh wrote: »

Maybe if you answered his question, another argument could be avoided, : why is the person tending the flag not penalised? That's how I read his question, I may be wrong an don't mind admitting it

Huh?
His question was why do you get penalised, I attempted to explain why. A conversation or debate is not an argument unless you cannot accept another person having a different view without getting childish and stroppy about it; I don't see any evidence of that here, do you?

ForeRight

Unlikely scenario but imagine this:


Club matchplay and you are miles from the hole and need the flag tended by your competitor. You hit your putt and he doesn't take the pin out and you hit it. You know he is acting the maggot but He says the pin was getting stuck and wouldn't come out so it's a penalty against you. He wins the hole.


What's the outcome after the digging match has finished?

Dublin Spur

ForeRight wrote: »

Unlikely scenario but imagine this:


Club matchplay and you are miles from the hole and need the flag tended by your competitor. You hit your putt and he doesn't take the pin out and you hit it. You know he is acting the maggot but He says the pin was getting stuck and wouldn't come out so it's a penalty against you. He wins the hole.


What's the outcome after the digging match has finished?

this is one if the reasons why the rule is flawed - no rule should give one player 'power' over another - Madness IMO

Dublin Spur

if someone has to be penalised it should the the idiot who couldn't or (even worse) decided not to take the flag out

it's sure not the fault of the putter who is attempting to make a putt in good faith

PARlance

Dublin Spur wrote: »

if someone has to be penalised it should the the idiot who couldn't or (even worse) decided not to take the flag out

it's sure not the fault of the putter who is attempting to make a putt in good faith

We're talking about an extremely rare scenario I think.

But the same idiot could be playing in his regular 3 ball and decide (if he was out of the running) to hold the flag down along the ground as his mate (on a good score) has just hit one that is going to rush by the hole.

If someone decided to keep the flag in to cause an opponent a penalty I'm pretty sure it'd be the last flag he'd be asked to attend at that club. If the penalty was reversed he could be assisting/getting assistance from his regular 3 ball every week and no one would really be the wiser.

Reversing the penalty just opens up a lot more way that idiots could prosper.

PARlance

Did it happen to you Dublin Spur?

Rikand

Sometimes the flag gets stuck in the hole. Then it's definitely the fault of the player taking the putt for not removing it or making sure it was loose in the hole.

ForeRight

Another interesting one is of the pin is down and you are standing beside it when your playing partner hits his putt.
His ball is going for the flag but you cannot touch it or lift if. You just have to let it hit the flag and penalise them.

agusta

ForeRight wrote: »

Another interesting one is of the pin is down and you are standing beside it when your playing partner hits his putt.
His ball is going for the flag but you cannot touch it or lift if. You just have to let it hit the flag and penalise them.

I believe this to be incorrect.you can move the flag stick to avoid your playing partner getting a penalty.I think the rule was changed in 2008

PARlance

ForeRight wrote: »

Another interesting one is of the pin is down and you are standing beside it when your playing partner hits his putt.
His ball is going for the flag but you cannot touch it or lift if. You just have to let it hit the flag and penalise them.

I'm a bad putter and I've never hit a flag that was placed on the ground

It's completely the fault of the putter in that instance IMO. Move it or ask for it to be moved before hand, if you don't you deserve a 2 shot penalty and should be forced to wrap the putter around your own neck.

Edit: Augusta is right, rule was changed. You still deserve a whack of your own putter if you get close to hitting it though

ForeRight

If it's changed I was unaware of it.

It was only recently I played a comps and my partner drilled a putt past te hole. I went to move the flag as he was looking like hitting it but he said not too as that is deemed to be influencing the shot after the stroke and wasn't allowed.

Dublin Spur

PARlance wrote: »

Did it happen to you Dublin Spur?

Haha, thankfully not, just heard about it the other day and thought it was ludicrous that u can be punished in the rules based on the actions of another player whose actions u can't control.

Seems unfair and a bit stupid to me

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Haha, thankfully not, just heard about it the other day and thought it was ludicrous that u can be punished in the rules based on the actions of another player whose actions u can't control.

Seems unfair and a bit stupid to me

Would be the exact same if I could lash my putt at you as you are removing the flag and you get penalized if it hit it.
Game would turn into Ice Hockey.

Dublin Spur

some rules seem to cater for situations that would never occur in a sane round of gold

anyway, I guess that's the charm of the game in a weird way

Seve OB

ForeRight wrote: »

Unlikely scenario but imagine this:


Club matchplay and you are miles from the hole and need the flag tended by your competitor. You hit your putt and he doesn't take the pin out and you hit it. You know he is acting the maggot but He says the pin was getting stuck and wouldn't come out so it's a penalty against you. He wins the hole.


What's the outcome after the digging match has finished?

Well if this was matchplay and I was the one tending the flag.... I would not penalise my opponent as it was my fault. Wasn't there a rule quoted in the thread about illegal driver, that players in a matchplay can agree to override a rule for the integrity of the game?

However to stop the flag getting "stuck" for whatever reason whenever I tend the flagstick I always remove it from the Pin hole first, then hold it just inside the cup, at an angle so I can stand further away from the hole so as not to impeed on any lines, shadows etc.

ForeRight

stevieob wrote: »

Well if this was matchplay and I was the one tending the flag.... I would not penalise my opponent as it was my fault. Wasn't there a rule quoted in the thread about illegal driver, that players in a matchplay can agree to override a rule for the integrity of the game?

However to stop the flag getting "stuck" for whatever reason whenever I tend the flagstick I always remove it from the Pin hole first, then hold it just inside the cup, at an angle so I can stand further away from the hole so as not to impeed on any lines, shadows etc.

I agree completely but imagine scenario if up against the likes of mr illegal driver type fellas and they blatantly act the maggot not taking the flag out even after asked to tend it

Seve OB

ForeRight wrote: »

I agree completely but imagine scenario if up against the likes of mr illegal driver type fellas and they blatantly act the maggot not taking the flag out even after asked to tend it

well then you would just have to play him at his own game.

padser

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Haha, thankfully not, just heard about it the other day and thought it was ludicrous that u can be punished in the rules based on the actions of another player whose actions u can't control.

Seems unfair and a bit stupid to me

You seem to be spectacularly missing the point ...... repeatedly.

If you are putting, it's your responsibility to ensure your ball doesn't hit the flag. No one else. You! You alone.

You can let your playing partner remove it for you, at this point they are acting for you. If they make a mistake, they are making it on your behalf.

The rules don't put you in a situation where you can be punished by the actions (or inactions) of another player. The rules give you a way around that (remove the flag yourself) but if you choose not to take that option then you accept the risk the flag doesn't come out in time.

It's not unfair, it's not stupid, it's not ludicrous.

For all the reasons already pointed out (multiple times) in this thread having the penalty go the other way would be all those things.....

Dublin Spur

padser wrote: »

You seem to be spectacularly missing the point ...... repeatedly.

If you are putting, it's your responsibility to ensure your ball doesn't hit the flag. No one else. You! You alone.

You can let your playing partner remove it for you, at this point they are acting for you. If they make a mistake, they are making it on your behalf.

The rules don't put you in a situation where you can be punished by the actions (or inactions) of another player. The rules give you a way around that (remove the flag yourself) but if you choose not to take that option then you accept the risk the flag doesn't come out in time.

It's not unfair, it's not stupid, it's not ludicrous.

For all the reasons already pointed out (multiple times) in this thread having the penalty go the other way would be all those things.....

Still think it's complete bollox - sorry

Golfnut77

It depends on whether the person tending left it hit the flag on purpose or not, if they did then they are DQd.

But it's impossible to prove someone else's intentions and they won't admit to leaving it hit the flag on purpose so this situation will always result in 2 stroke penalty for the person putting.

namloc1980

stevieob wrote: »

Well if this was matchplay and I was the one tending the flag.... I would not penalise my opponent as it was my fault. Wasn't there a rule quoted in the thread about illegal driver, that players in a matchplay can agree to override a rule for the integrity of the game?

However to stop the flag getting "stuck" for whatever reason whenever I tend the flagstick I always remove it from the Pin hole first, then hold it just inside the cup, at an angle so I can stand further away from the hole so as not to impeed on any lines, shadows etc.

No. You can never agree to waive or disregard a Rule. You'd both be disqualified. What you can do in match play is simply turn a blind eye to a rules infraction by your opponent but you can't agree with them that you're doing so.

Seve OB

namloc1980 wrote: »

No. You can never agree to waive or disregard a Rule. You'd both be disqualified. What you can do in match play is simply turn a blind eye to a rules infraction by your opponent but you can't agree with them that you're doing so.

I stand corrected, Rule 2-5(note 1) A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule