Taking a gift back

baileathari

Hi
Does anyone know if it is considered illegal for someone to use a gift voucher they gave you without your permission?

I was given a gift voucher and when I went to use it , I was told it was already used by the person who bought it!!

They had emailed the hotel and told them I wasn't able to use it .. So they used it !!

Bizarre situation ...

No Pants

Technically it's probably theft. I take it you know the person involved. What explanation did they have?

baileathari

Yes I do know the person. Had fallen out before she used the voucher.

No Pants

baileathari wrote: »

Yes I do know the person. Had fallen out before she used the voucher.

In practical terms, there's probably nothing you can do. If your name was on the voucher, you could kick up a bit of a stink with the hotel maybe. It's a scummy thing to do. Now at least you know what she's really like.

baileathari

No Pants wrote: »

In practical terms, there's probably nothing you can do. If your name was on the voucher, you could kick up a bit of a stink with the hotel maybe. It's a scummy thing to do. Now at least you know what she's really like.

Yes my name was on the voucher. Spoke to the hotel who confirmed they had received emails from her stating that I was unable to use the voucher and she was going to use it and she did.
Certainly do know now what she's really like !!! It was a nasty thing to do.

Beano

surely if the voucher was in your name then it is a case of theft?

Chattastrophe!

From a legal point of view, maybe it was theft ...

From a moral point of view, would you really have enjoyed using a gift when you'd fallen out with the person? Obviously I don't know the exact circumstances, but I'm inclined to think that maybe you should just let this one go ...

baileathari

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

From a legal point of view, maybe it was theft ...

From a moral point of view, would you really have enjoyed using a gift when you'd fallen out with the person? Obviously I don't know the exact circumstances, but I'm inclined to think that maybe you should just let this one go ...

Yes probably will let it go!! I just wasn't sure of the legal standing of such.
The voucher was purchased for me from a group of 4 persons for a milestone birthday. Unfortunately, it was the girl whose card they used( who I fell out with) who used the voucher.
I haven't mentioned anything to the other 3 as I don't see the benefit of doing so for them or I .

amen

I think you should go back to the Hotel. They issued a voucher with your name on it and the hotel should have checked before letting someone else use the voucher.

Sulla Felix

That's different altogether then. I'd definitely let the others know what happened. Tell them the hotel declined the voucher and since you're not talking to whoever it is, could one of them find out what happened.

No Pants

baileathari wrote: »

The voucher was purchased for me from a group of 4 persons for a milestone birthday. Unfortunately, it was the girl whose card they used( who I fell out with) who used the voucher.

Okay, so she stole from a total of 4 people, not just you. I'd definitely let them know.

baileathari

amen wrote: »

I think you should go back to the Hotel. They issued a voucher with your name on it and the hotel should have checked before letting someone else use the voucher.

Yes the hotel are aware of the situation. They accept from their end that because the person who used the voucher had paid for the voucher via credit card they had to reason to suspect anything.

They have kept copies of the emails should I be in a position to take it further.

And my query really is: is it regarded as a theft ie criminal to use a gift (take back a gift) without the consent of the owner of the gift ??

Sulla Felix

I think it would be, especially considering the entire gift wasn't from her. At the very least it's theft from the other three parties (she took money from them under false pretences)

yopy

I would let the other 3 people know. She stole from all 4 of you.

baileathari

Sulla Felix wrote: »

That's different altogether then. I'd definitely let the others know what happened. Tell them the hotel declined the voucher and since you're not talking to whoever it is, could one of them find out what happened.

Yes perhaps..

baileathari

Beano wrote: »

surely if the voucher was in your name then it is a case of theft?

That's exactly what I'm unsure of .. Is it a clear case of theft.

I still have the voucher but I can't use it as she has used it up ..

keysersoze0330

Id go to town on her...how dare she. let the other victims off her theft know also.

Hogzy

A gift becomes a completed gift when total control of the donor ceases. Given the fact the donor still retained control over the voucher it ceased to be a gift - in legal terms anyway.

The person who 'cashed in' the voucher had a better claim to it than you had however the other 3 donors who also paid money towards the voucher would have a claim against the person who cashed it in as presumably she did not have their authority to use their voucher for her own benefit. THe funds were to benefit you.

If I were you I would say it to the other people who chipped in for the voucher as they will be rightly annoyed that someone else has benefited from their goodwill.

baileathari

Hogzy wrote: »

A gift becomes a completed gift when total control of the donor ceases. Given the fact the donor still retained control over the voucher it ceased to be a gift - in legal terms anyway.

The person who 'cashed in' the voucher had a better claim to it than you had however the other 3 donors who also paid money towards the voucher would have a claim against the person who cashed it in as presumably she did not have their authority to use their voucher for her own benefit. THe funds were to benefit you.

If I were you I would say it to the other people who chipped in for the voucher as they will be rightly annoyed that someone else has benefited from their goodwill.

Wow that's certainly food for thought in relation to the ownership of the gift voucher.

I may well in the future mention it to the other contributors that I never got to benefit from their kind gift.

baileathari

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Id go to town on her...how dare she. let the other victims off her theft know also.

Yes it was a nasty thing to do and brazen !!

Sulla Felix

Hogzy wrote: »

A gift becomes a completed gift when total control of the donor ceases. Given the fact the donor still retained control over the voucher it ceased to be a gift - in legal terms anyway.

The person who 'cashed in' the voucher had a better claim to it than you had however the other 3 donors who also paid money towards the voucher would have a claim against the person who cashed it in as presumably she did not have their authority to use their voucher for her own benefit. THe funds were to benefit you.

If I were you I would say it to the other people who chipped in for the voucher as they will be rightly annoyed that someone else has benefited from their goodwill.

Was the control she exercised rightful though, or did the hotel drop the ball? Considering the voucher was in OPs name surely it shouldn't matter whos card it was for with?

Hogzy

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Was the control she exercised rightful though, or did the hotel drop the ball? Considering the voucher was in OPs name surely it shouldn't matter whos card it was for with?

It would depend on the terms and conditions on the voucher. If I write your name on a €5 note that doesnt exactly make it yours. Similarly if Joe bloggs buys a voucher from a store and Joe Bloggs pays for it then that voucher is the property of Joe Bloggs (although a voucher simply means you are a creditor of the company). The contract is between Joe and the shop. If Joe gives the voucher to another person then that is a separate deal to the purchase of the voucher. I assume the person who received the voucher provided no consideration (payment) for the voucher therefore has no right to it.

A gift is only a gift if the donor of the gift relinquishes all control of the gift. A gift can also cease to be a gift if the donor no longer intends for the property to be a gift and therefore 'takes it back'. If a donor relinquishes total control then he would not be in a position to take the gift back.

(All the above is assuming certain facts are at play)

Subject to the terms and conditions of the voucher the hotel had every right to do what they did. Again the contract of sale was between the donor and the hotel. The donee was not a party to the contract and provided no consideration (presumably) therefore would not have a claim legally.

I really dont understand why people give vouchers to others as gifts. They are riff with problems. You are simply paying to become an unsecured creditor of a company. Pointless considering the amount of companies going under these days.

baileathari

Hogzy wrote: »

It would depend on the terms and conditions on the voucher. If I write your name on a €5 note that doesnt exactly make it yours. Similarly if Joe bloggs buys a voucher from a store and Joe Bloggs pays for it then that voucher is the property of Joe Bloggs (although a voucher simply means you are a creditor of the company). The contract is between Joe and the shop. If Joe gives the voucher to another person then that is a separate deal to the purchase of the voucher. I assume the person who received the voucher provided no consideration (payment) for the voucher therefore has no right to it.

A gift is only a gift if the donor of the gift relinquishes all control of the gift. A gift can also cease to be a gift if the donor no longer intends for the property to be a gift and therefore 'takes it back'. If a donor relinquishes total control then he would not be in a position to take the gift back.

(All the above is assuming certain facts are at play)

Subject to the terms and conditions of the voucher the hotel had every right to do what they did. Again the contract of sale was between the donor and the hotel. The donee was not a party to the contract and provided no consideration (presumably) therefore would not have a claim legally.

I really dont understand why people give vouchers to others as gifts. They are riff with problems. You are simply paying to become an unsecured creditor of a company. Pointless considering the amount of companies going under these days.

My scenario was that 4 people clubbed together to purchase a gift for me.

The voucher gift was purchased from a 'groupon' like deal and my name and a birthday message was printed on the voucher.

I was given a birthday card signed by the four with a message to say enjoy your gift etc etc ... With the 'groupon like voucher ' enclosed.

When I went to book the hotel using the voucher .. I was told that although my name was on the voucher they had assumed that I had authorised the name change and had no reason to suspect otherwise as the credit card used to pay for the voucher was the person who changed and used the voucher.

Ah well perhaps she needed it more than I did.....

silly

Thats a pretty scummy thing to do - have you told your other friends yet?

goz83

The gift was from 4 people. That's a 25% stake per person. 75% control was relinquished, but the card holder (thief) used her trump card (pun intended) to effectively steal from the other donors. OP, I would not wait to tell the other donors. If I were you, I would contact them all to tell them what happened. They have a right to know that someone stole from them.

Little CuChulainn

She basically took the other three's money and spent it on a gift for herself. They have a potential criminal complaint against her. They should definitely be told.

Owryan

My 2c worth. Did the other 3 give her money to contribute towards the card?

If they did and she didn't refund them, she has effectively used them to subsidise her break.

By any standards that is wrong and they deserve to know.

goz83

I for one would be interested in knowing the outcome of this. I imagine it is a regular enough occurrence, with slightly different circumstances of course. anyone else? thank this post.;)

baileathari

Owryan wrote: »

My 2c worth. Did the other 3 give her money to contribute towards the card?

If they did and she didn't refund them, she has effectively used them to subsidise her break.

By any standards that is wrong and they deserve to know.

Yes the others contributed to the gift.

h2005

Did you tell the other 3? I'd want to know if I was one of them.

baileathari

goz83 wrote: »

I for one would be interested in knowing the outcome of this. I imagine it is a regular enough occurrence, with slightly different circumstances of course. anyone else? thank this post.;)

I'm not sure if you will be satisfied with outcome from a legal perspective.I have decided if I have no legal entitlement to the 'gift' then unless it comes up in conversation with the others I will not say anything to them. They gave me the gift in good faith. I believe that due to the grievance that the girl had with me was her reason to use the voucher. I don't feel it is necessary to infiltrate her horrible retaliation methods into anyone else's life.

baileathari

Owryan wrote: »

My 2c worth. Did the other 3 give her money to contribute towards the card?

If they did and she didn't refund them, she has effectively used them to subsidise her break.

By any standards that is wrong and they deserve to know.

Yes they probably should be told. However the girl who 'stole' my gift is a narcissistic bully. The repercussions would be a lot worse than stealing the voucher. If I have no legal standing then I won't take it any further unless it comes up in conversation.

baileathari

h2005 wrote: »

Did you tell the other 3? I'd want to know if I was one of them.

No I haven't as yet. I won't unless it comes up in conversation. I don't see these people everyday.

baileathari

baileathari wrote: »

Hi
Does anyone know if it is considered illegal for someone to use a gift voucher they gave you without your permission?

I was given a gift voucher and when I went to use it , I was told it was already used by the person who bought it!!

They had emailed the hotel and told them I wasn't able to use it .. So they used it !!

Bizarre situation ...

I find it alarming that a gift is not a possession of the recipient once it had been exchanged. I initially thought once the gift had been accepted that the ownership of the 'gift' had changed !!

Little CuChulainn

In effect, you are simply covering for her and helping her steal from them. Obviously it's your choice in the end, but I have a feeling most people here won't agree with it.

No Pants

I think your only course of action is to go back to the people who bought the voucher since it's clear that the ownership was not properly transferred.

hullaballoo

baileathari wrote: »

I find it alarming that a gift is not a possession of the recipient once it had been exchanged. I initially thought once the gift had been accepted that the ownership of the 'gift' had changed !!

It has. The problem is that in order to bring an action, you would be getting into an area of law that is too complex to be dealt with in the lower courts, to be frank. You could end up in expensive litigation over a couple of hundred euro. It's disproportionate.

In terms of the criminal aspect, I'm not so sure. It looks like it might be theft and if so, I don't see why you cannot make a complaint to the Gardaí yourself. Again, though, this may be disproportionate because the Gardaí are unlikely to be interested in dealing with such a trivial matter. Even if they did, it wouldn't do you any good really.

goz83

baileathari wrote: »

I'm not sure if you will be satisfied with outcome from a legal perspective.I have decided if I have no legal entitlement to the 'gift' then unless it comes up in conversation with the others I will not say anything to them. They gave me the gift in good faith. I believe that due to the grievance that the girl had with me was her reason to use the voucher. I don't feel it is necessary to infiltrate her horrible retaliation methods into anyone else's life.

Legally, I would say it is not worth the trouble. But if I were one of the people who chipped in for the voucher (assuming about €50 each, give or take), I would be furious about what this other person did. It is unlikely to come up in conversation and it sounds like you don't want to be seen rocking the boat, or ruffling and feathers.

If tables were turned, I bet you would appreciate being told the truth. If you told me in "conversation" when it came up, I would be quite annoyed with you that you hadn't told me right away. Strike while the iron is hot, or let the thief get off, scot free. Her grievance with you is separate to the theft from the other donors.

TimeToShine

A lot of it depends on the relationship you and this woman have with the other three people. Only you can judge whether it's worth telling them or not.

LynnGrace

TimeToShine wrote: »

A lot of it depends on the relationship you and this woman have with the other three people. Only you can judge whether it's worth telling them or not.

Agreed. I've never heard of anyone doing such a thing.
The fact that others (presumably) chipped in their share, and she used their gift for herself, is completely dishonest, on her part.
Of course, it is down to you, what you want to do, and how strongly you feel about the whole thing. I'd be fairly disgusted, and would definitely consider telling the others what has happened.