How good was bj penn?

monkey8

I was always a huge fan of bj penn. Always considered him an amazing talent.

But looking back objectively at his career, was he really that good?

His record was 16-10 so he only won 60% of his fights

He only had one REALLY impressive win (hughes)

His "domination" of the lightweight division were wins over

Jen Pulver
Joe Stevenson
Sean Sherk
Kenny florian
Diego Sanchez

All decent but none great by any stretch of the imagination.

I think this "domination" get exaggerated a lot.

What do you think?

gallag

Completely agree, surrounded himself with yes men and squandered his massive potential.

Mellor

Looking at his record as a straight win-rate overlooks a huge amount. Sure, straight up, he won less than two-thirds of his matches (62%). But he never looked to protect a record or a streak. He went after the fights. After winning two UFC titles, he jumped up to MW to fight Renzo Gracie, then fought a 225lb Machida.

Dtp1979

Mellor wrote: »

Looking at his record as a straight win-rate overlooks a huge amount. Sure, straight up, he won less than two-thirds of his matches (62%). But he never looked to protect a record or a streak. He went after the fights. After winning two UFC titles, he jumped up to MW to fight Renzo Gracie, then fought a 225lb Machida.

Fighting a few times out of your weight class doesn't make you a legend though. I think if BJ in his prime was thrown into today's LW division he wouldn't win the belt

Mean Laqueefa

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Fighting a few times out of your weight class doesn't make you a legend though. I think if BJ in his prime was thrown into today's LW division he wouldn't win the belt

Maybe , but what makes him a legend is that he would probably take them fights. The LW's now are a bunch of savages i agree and i hear online alot that you need to be a black belt in EVERYTHING ti stand a chance in that division now, but parts of me feel BJ in his prime would still have a chance.

Legend is relative in this debate as we have different views and base it on different facts and stats. IMO BJ stepped up to every fight , won some barn burners , near murdered Sanchez , lost some tight decisions won two belts at diff weights , involved in rivalry's and always had time for fans , so to me he is a legend of the sport.

scudzilla

BJ was just so frustrating, we were constantly hearing of how good he is, how he's in the best shape of his life, how he's ready to dominate, then he comes out and gets mauled.

Funniest for me was the last GSP fight i think, they showed a clip of him in training, carrying huge rocks underwater, saying that this will increase his cardio dramatically and he's now in the best shape he's ever been. The result was a gassed BJ in the 2nd :pac::pac:

Axwell

My memories of BJ Penn fights are seeing all the build up and hype and knowing the event was going to be on at all hours of the morning. The countdown video and all the talk of how he was in his best shape of his life etc etc making me decide to stay up and watch it thinking ok this time its for real, only to be disappointed again with a crap fight, BJ getting mauled and me crawling to bed at 6am thinking what a waste staying up.

Dtp1979

The only time I can remember being impressed by BJ was against Sean Sherk. I remember how much his boxing had improved

Zero-Cool

Mellor

He achieved his BJJ black belt very quickly. Prob the fastest non Brazilian at the time, but it wasn't in 3 years.
Sonethingbthas reoeated constantly but not quite true

John_D80

If you are measuring him against current fighters then he is at best, top 10, no where near top 5. The sport has evolved dramatically in the last 10 years so it's unfair to compare him to active greats.

As a product of his generation he is by far one of the most outstanding fighters of his time. I don't often agree with anything Dana White says but BJ Penn did indeed contribute greatly to building the UFC. Guaranteed HOF induction in the next few years and rightly so.

CM24

I'm not sure if he should be lauded for fighting above his weight class. He just likes to eat fast food. Most fighters say cutting weight is the hardest part of the sport.

MMA hipsters like to waffle on about how great BJ was ''back in the day''. In his prime, he fought to a draw against Caol Uno. Barely scraped a decision against Matt Serra. He beat a deflated Sean Sherk in what was a fairly even contest until the knee. The Machida he fought was still green and a tad chubby.

I think much of his hype was built upon his BJJ accomplishments and some flashy quick knockouts early in his career. He was just an embarrassment for the last few years of his career.

dulux99

This may be a massive sweeping generalization, but I'm going for it anyway.

Very few people who were proper MMA fans during BJ's prime, ever doubt him as a fighter. It's easy to go through his record these days and break it down in terms of numbers. He had a mystique, and aura about him that very few fighters have ever replicated. When BJ Penn was fighting, it was a massive deal for true fans of the sport. The only person on par with this was probably Anderson Silva in my opinion.

MartyMcFly84

He was a great fighter, and gave us some cracking fights and finishes. His technique was sweet to watch.

He was from a different generation of fighter, he relied on high level technique. In a time where he didn't really need much else. There were physical guys but no one near his level technique wise.

The modern fighter has high level technique, physique, diet discipline etc. Its a different ball game these days. BJ loved to scrap and did it beautifully, and you cannot take away any of his achievements. I was incredibly frustrated at his conditioning throughout his career as it was frustrating to see someone at that level of greatness not taking the next leap to become a GOAT, but that is the tragedy of artistic genius.

osl

CM24 wrote: »

I'm not sure if he should be lauded for fighting above his weight class. He just likes to eat fast food. Most fighters say cutting weight is the hardest part of the sport.

MMA hipsters like to waffle on about how great BJ was ''back in the day''. In his prime, he fought to a draw against Caol Uno. Barely scraped a decision against Matt Serra. He beat a deflated Sean Sherk in what was a fairly even contest until the knee. The Machida he fought was still green and a tad chubby.

I think much of his hype was built upon his BJJ accomplishments and some flashy quick knockouts early in his career. He was just an embarrassment for the last few years of his career.

He also beat Matt Hughes when Hughes was smashing everyone. He fought GSP to a split decision. He should have retired a few years ago. Hasn't been the same since the first Frankie fight. He was 15-5-1 coming into that with his only losses against GSP, Hughes, Machida and Pulver.

At the risk of sounding like an "MMA hipster":rolleyes: BJ was amazing in his prime. I'll take the opinion of the people who fought and trained with him over people judging him from the last 4 years. Just because he fought too long shouldn't detract from the kind of fighter he was back in the day.

He beat every lightweight he ever faced at some stage of his career except Frankie, and plenty of people had him winning their first fight

samantha fortune

His fights were sometimes very dissapointing and i never really like him as a fighter but he does have some records and did achieve alot in his career so personally he is a legend in the sport i would say.

Xlami

http://www.setanta.com/ie/bj-penn-thank-you-for-the-memories/

Dermighty

I'm not a fan.

NickMondo

Top 5 p4p, underachieved. Workrate didn't match talent

bazza76dub

BJ was such a natural fighter, arguably the most natural the UFC has seen. Would fight anyone at any time, which I think led in part to his decline. Took a couple of beatings too many from big welterweights later in his career.

I agree with those that say, surrounded by yes men, he was for sure. And WTF with that style for his last fight against Edgar, a novice could tell you that upright approach was all wrong.

Still though, on his day he had some of the best striking and Jits in the UFC which was incredible considering how long he was training for prior. BJ is a legend in the sport.

Gumbi

bazza76dub wrote: »

BJ was such a natural fighter, arguably the most natural the UFC has seen. Would fight anyone at any time, which I think led in part to his decline. Took a couple of beatings too many from big welterweights later in his career.

I agree with those that say, surrounded by yes men, he was for sure. And WTF with that style for his last fight against Edgar, a novice could tell you that upright approach was all wrong.

Still though, on his day he had some of the best striking and Jits in the UFC which was incredible considering how long he was training for prior. BJ is a legend in the sport.

It's much like a typical Muay Thai stance, he trained with the Nova Uniao guys for that fight. You definitely can't punch effectively from your toes like that though, and he refused to step into his shot, I don't know what was up there.

Mellor

Gumbi wrote: »

It's much like a typical Muay Thai stance, he trained with the Nova Uniao guys for that fight. You definitely can't punch effectively from your toes like that though, and he refused to step into his shot, I don't know what was up there.

He said dropping into his shots wears him out quicker. By staying upright he was sacrificing power for stamina.
It also looked like he was baiting the TD. He's always been comfortable off his back.

Gumbi

Mellor wrote: »

He said dropping into his shots wears him out quicker. By staying upright he was sacrificing power for stamina.
It also looked like he was baiting the TD. He's always been comfortable off his back.

Ya he was asking for the td down in that stance, which is weird cos he's never submitted anyone off his back. Great at retaining guard but didn't try anything off his back once.

As for wearing himself out... well, clearly he wasn't properly cobditioned for this fight. Horribly gassed he was.