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https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

New loophole in speeding cases

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    #2
    The Dagda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭The Dagda


    I thought there'd be some reaction...?


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    #3
    obezyana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭obezyana


    Give us some time we are all contacting our solicitors as i type.


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    #4
    ardle1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭ardle1


    Was it Garth that was caught speeding?


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    #5
    Supergurrier
    Registered Users Posts: 7,292 ✭✭✭Supergurrier


    5 points or none


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    #6
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    I think the picture in that article is misleading. By my reading (And its a terrible article) the case involves a Garda van. When you are fined by a van in this country, the letter only shows a picture of your reg, not the actual car itself. You can however request a full frame photo. I would imagine the case here hinges on the fact that photo was not made available before a court date.

    On the flip side, it was ruled a number of years ago that the Garda laser gun cannot produce a permanent record of the offence and there were a few cases thrown out there. I'm not sure if it ever made its way up to a higher court for an overall ruling.

    This isn't a loophole, its a technicality that can be easily remedied by a few lines on the letter your get with your fine.


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    #7
    The Dagda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭The Dagda


    ironclaw wrote: »
    I think the picture in that article is misleading. By my reading (And its a terrible article) the case involves a Garda van. When you are fined by a van in this country, the letter only shows a picture of your reg, not the actual car itself. You can however request a full frame photo. I would imagine the case here hinges on the fact that photo was not made available before a court date.

    On the flip side, it was ruled a number of years ago that the Garda laser gun cannot produce a permanent record of the offence and there were a few cases thrown out there. I'm not sure if it ever made its way up to a higher court for an overall ruling.

    This isn't a loophole, its a technicality that can be easily remedied by a few lines on the letter your get with your fine.

    The case involves a Go-Safe van.

    The case was dismissed because the accused argued that he hadn't been presented with all the prosecution's evidence prior to the court case, which he is entitled to.

    The fact that a full photo can be applied for is not the same as being presented with the full photo.

    The judge said it was easily remedied with attaching the photo to the summons, and it may well be that easy, but we all know how slowly the wheels of the system turn.

    So until a solution is found, all Go-Safe cases which are heading for court are likely to be dismissed.


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    #8
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,417 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Other countries have been doing this for decades,how hard is it to get right?


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    #9
    The Dagda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭The Dagda


    kneemos wrote: »
    Other countries have been doing this for decades,how hard is it to get right?

    That is the question that should be asked...


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    #10
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    kneemos wrote: »
    Other countries have been doing this for decades,how hard is it to get right?

    Hopefully extremely hard and they never figure it out


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    #11
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Hopefully extremely hard and they never figure it out

    lol. :D


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    #12
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Tail Docker wrote: »
    lol. :D

    I wouldn't mind but I drive like Ms Daisy! I've only ever got one speeding ticket :)


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    #13
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    The Dagda wrote: »
    The case involves a Go-Safe van.

    The case was dismissed because the accused argued that he hadn't been presented with all the prosecution's evidence prior to the court case, which he is entitled to.

    I'm 90% sure its written on the summons that you can request it. I'm not read in law myself but I'd imagine if you are given an option to request something and don't, then all reasonable effort has been made by those issuing the fine. The fine itself has a photo of your reg and where the photo was taken. Surely if there was any doubt of whether it was the defendant, they would make reasonable effort to investigate further i.e. Request a larger photo. I know 'innocent until proven guilty' and those prosecuting have to make a full case, but theres also an onus on the defendant if they feel they have been wronged to make investigations of their own. I know I would before going to court.

    I'm all for people taking stuff like this to the courts as the current legislation is rubbish, but this isn't, at least from my reading, a loop hole.


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    #14
    HurtLocker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    I doubt its a big loophole. Just RTE making a story during "silly season".


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    #15
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    ironclaw wrote: »
    I'm 90% sure its written on the summons that you can request it.
    At that point it's too late. You shouldn't have to wait for the penalty to double before you can get the evidence against you.


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    #16
    mikeecho
    Registered Users Posts: 5,091 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    The story with this loop hole is:

    When a ticket isn't paid, a summons is issued.
    Along with the summons is a full picture of the offending car.

    However there is no documentation to prove that this picture was served on/to the owner/driver of the car.

    Thats what the loophole is.. there is no proof that all the evidence has been served on the defendant.

    The solution will be a supplementary declaration that will have to be endorsed to accompany the summons.
    But this supplementary summons will have to be approved by judges etc.

    It'll all be fixed fairly quick i reckon.

    Enjoy it while you can


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    #17
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Point taken mikeecho, but whats to stop the judge asking for the photo (Which presumably the prosecution will bring) and just fining you the original sum (i.e. €80 and 2 points)? Either way, your still likely to get a fine?

    Just wondering, again, I'm not read in law.


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    #18
    mikeecho
    Registered Users Posts: 5,091 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Point taken mikeecho, but whats to stop the judge asking for the photo (Which presumably the prosecution will bring) and just fining you the original sum (i.e. €80 and 2 points)? Either way, your still likely to get a fine?

    Just wondering, again, I'm not read in law.

    From what I've been told. ...

    All evidence that the prosecution wishes to use, must be presented to the defendant prior to the court date.
    See: "garry doyle order,"

    Solicitors sign for documents they receive ftom the gardai.. stuff like statements, cctv, copies of various docs etc.


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    #19
    HurtLocker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    mikeecho wrote: »
    The story with this loop hole is:

    When a ticket isn't paid, a summons is issued.
    Along with the summons is a full picture of the offending car.

    However there is no documentation to prove that this picture was served on/to the owner/driver of the car.

    Thats what the loophole is.. there is no proof that all the evidence has been served on the defendant.

    The solution will be a supplementary declaration that will have to be endorsed to accompany the summons.
    But this supplementary summons will have to be approved by judges etc.

    It'll all be fixed fairly quick i reckon.

    Enjoy it while you can
    Does this mean every single speeding case before the courts has to be dismissed besides from gardai with hairdryers?


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    #20
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    HurtLocker wrote: »
    Does this mean every single speeding case before the courts has to be dismissed besides from gardai with hairdryers?

    I remember reading somewhere that once a judgement is passed in any case, its very hard to get it revoked retrospectively. I'd also imagine its up to the individual to appeal it.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be getting too exited about this loophole until its had some time in the higher courts / law makers and a final decision is passed on it.


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