combining suckler cows into a dairy enterprise

mike hilux

Hello I'm a young man who is new to dairy farming and have inherited a small to medium size farm. It consists of 3 blocks. The first 2 blocks consist of 40 acres each that connect at a small strip of land (basically a farm road way) but are divided by a river. These blocks are further divided (in half again approx) by public roads of which one is quite busy.The third block is about a mile away but is very broken. It consists of 37 acres in 6 blocks but all within walking distance of each other I'm currently milking 40 cows on the first block and this involves a lot of walking for the cows who probably cover about a mile each day due to the layout of the land.(it's a very long farm and for some reason the milking parlour was placed in a wood. Away from any grass land.) the second block I use for rearing cattle and thethird block is used for silage or if I need extra grass. The place needs a lot of work and I have been hitting around ideas in my head fora while. One that I have been leaning towards lately is leaving diary and just having sucklers whilst going back into working. but it is the milk check that makes me think twice about doing this. So another idea I had is to go the suckler route of simmentals and then eventually cross them back to a montbeliarde. Calving these in the autumn and milking them once a day (am) then letting their calves suckle them until evening before separating them for the night again so they would be milked after 16 hours and then suckler for 8 hours. Then in April I leave them off with their calves untill weaning in july. This is just a thought so I'm hoping not to be chastised to much. My background is that I had an ok job abroad (America) for a few years and when my uncle got poorly I returned on the spur of the moment as it was calving season and have been milking for the last 3 year's. Iv nevertaken to milking and TBH I don't like it and find the solitude hard to take. Anyway thanks for listening and any ideas and input are very much welcomed and appreciated

keep going

Personally I think there are two separte decisions that are connected.the first is what do you want to work at and what are the options.do you want to milk cows or do you want to work off farm and what work is available to you.if you decide to work off farm how do set up your farm business.is once a day milking an option.shouldyou have dry cattle or sucklers.would repostioning the parlour greatly improve your milking setup.the suggestion to calve simental in the autumn andco mbine suckling seems flawed due to the fact you are produceing your milk at an expensive time but I need to give it more thought.there are lots of options but I think the first question is do you want to milk cows .

greysides

Welcome to the forum, mike hilux.

mike hilux

Hello again. The answer to your question is that I don't know about milking cows anymore.I used not mind it but the routine on the farm is far from ideal. And it all centers around the cows crossing the road for milking. People just don't like seeing cows on the road these says. Iv had people driving straight at me. People beeping at the cows. I've been threatened with legal action as well as physical action. A few years back before I returned there was a case where a man drove into the herd at speed and killed one + did a fair but of damage to 4 more. From gate to gate is 78m. So to move the parlour would be ideal. Iv worked on a few horse studs around and have got on well at several so was going to look for work at them. Part time first and see after that. One place already said they could give me 3 days a week next spring as it's their busy time with foaling. My only problem is I'm also calving so that's why I'm think of an autumn calving suckler herd to fit in with this. Then I read how sucklers are only break even at best before the single farm payment and I question again about leaving the milk check behind. So one day it just came to me that while I'm there feeding them in the shed and since I will have to build a new parlour if I'm to stay dairying. Why not build the parlour beside them and milk them through the winter. The farm is over 2 miles long so to March animals that distance every day for milking is not a runner and unfortunately the outer fields are steep so have to be grazed while the inner circle is what is used for silage so I don't know where to put the parlour

blue5000

What are the rest of the buildings like; slats, cubicles, slurry storage?

If you are thinking of suckling and working off farm fencing needs to 100% TBH there isn't any money in suckling to pay for buildings etc. Can you stick it in dairying for a couple of more years to set the place up better with surplus cash?

What you are at sounds painful with the fragmentation, any chance of swopping some parcels with neighbours who are in a similar situation?

Cash flow will be a huge thing if you change, there is a lot to be said for a few thousand coming in almost every month.

I was milking up until '06, changed over to suckling so I've been there. Welcome to boards. There are a few other ppl on here who changed too.

Greengrass1

blue5000 wrote: »

What are the rest of the buildings like; slats, cubicles, slurry storage?

If you are thinking of suckling and working off farm fencing needs to 100% TBH there isn't any money in suckling to pay for buildings etc. Can you stick it in dairying for a couple of more years to set the place up better with surplus cash?

What you are at sounds painful with the fragmentation, any chance of swopping some parcels with neighbours who are in a similar situation?

Cash flow will be a huge thing if you change, there is a lot to be said for a few thousand coming in almost every month.

I was milking up until '06, changed over to suckling so I've been there. Welcome to boards. There are a few other ppl on here who changed too.

Good idea blue.
Is there a chance anyone will swap land?

visatorro

In your first post you said you don't like milking cows. Life's too short. Start looking for the job your qualified and enjoy doing. And leave the cows ta feck.

mike hilux

Hello. First off thanks for the replys and welcomes.
When it comes to the sheds situation I would laugh if it wasn't me. The milking parlor is 5 units and has 19 cubicles but only enough slurry storage for 12 cows for the winter period thats if your not milking and so are not hosing down. In the yard with this is a 6 bay open side calf house and a hay barn.

Half a mile over the road is the winter sheds with 32 cubicles and the silage pit. This was built in the 70s and is where they eat off the pit face. This is a nightmare of a place. The walkway between cubicles is just the with of the tractor so their isn't much room for error hence why you rarely see mud guards and wing mirrors where they should be. Slurry storage is inadequate also comprising of a walled concrete slope that you push the dung and slurry into which in early spring leads to the tractor being driven around in 2 foot of slop.

The yearlings are kept in a 3 bay slatted shed which is the best setup on the farm but it is on an out farm which is a 7 mile round trip which is taken in the tractor every day but the only problem here is when your calving it gets hard to get here between calving and milking and what ever else decides to go wrong.

That's basically the jigs and reels of it now. I have planning permission for a 5 bay x 44ft shed on the wintering yard where the cows are kept and trying to decide weather to fill it with cubicles or a suckler cow and calf shed.

When I took over I was informed by the solicitor about the mountain of depth that was coming my way (he told me that I might want to sit down for this part) so that's four years ago now and I finally cleared it but I'm not exactly flush with cash now.

Land here seems precious and I have tested the water with locals and have found that most would gladly take it off my hands but it seems out of the question that there would be anything coming back.

If I'm being brutally honest iv just hit a wall this year and am looking for options. These days I'd just love an easier life where the pressure would just subside every once and a while. I've come to the stage that I think I'm doing it out of spite to myself and have come to point where I can't see the woods from the trees.

Sorry to go on so long and I both welcome and appreciate all comments and ideas

royalmeath

If your bothered milking cows then you should look at selling all the land you have and buying a single piece of land that is not split by roads.
If not then just sell them and get yourself a nice job back in the real world. I think you would be made to bother with sucklers then as there is a lot of work with them too.

Greengrass1

Sounds like you have the hard work done re dept. Fair play its a hard task coming into a place like you have.
The question you have to answer yourself is do you still like milking cows?
If you get a good set up with a good shed and half decent 10-12 unit parlour it would be an easy ooperation.
You say you liked cows. You might like them once again if the set up was easier ran?

visatorro

mike hilux wrote: »

Hello. First off thanks for the replys and welcomes.
When it comes to the sheds situation I would laugh if it wasn't me. The milking parlor is 5 units and has 19 cubicles but only enough slurry storage for 12 cows for the winter period thats if your not milking and so are not hosing down. In the yard with this is a 6 bay open side calf house and a hay barn.

Half a mile over the road is the winter sheds with 32 cubicles and the silage pit. This was built in the 70s and is where they eat off the pit face. This is a nightmare of a place. The walkway between cubicles is just the with of the tractor so their isn't much room for error hence why you rarely see mud guards and wing mirrors where they should be. Slurry storage is inadequate also comprising of a walled concrete slope that you push the dung and slurry into which in early spring leads to the tractor being driven around in 2 foot of slop.

The yearlings are kept in a 3 bay slatted shed which is the best setup on the farm but it is on an out farm which is a 7 mile round trip which is taken in the tractor every day but the only problem here is when your calving it gets hard to get here between calving and milking and what ever else decides to go wrong.

That's basically the jigs and reels of it now. I have planning permission for a 5 bay x 44ft shed on the wintering yard where the cows are kept and trying to decide weather to fill it with cubicles or a suckler cow and calf shed.

When I took over I was informed by the solicitor about the mountain of depth that was coming my way (he told me that I might want to sit down for this part) so that's four years ago now and I finally cleared it but I'm not exactly flush with cash now.

Land here seems precious and I have tested the water with locals and have found that most would gladly take it off my hands but it seems out of the question that there would be anything coming back.

If I'm being brutally honest iv just hit a wall this year and am looking for options. These days I'd just love an easier life where the pressure would just subside every once and a while. I've come to the stage that I think I'm doing it out of spite to myself and have come to point where I can't see the woods from the trees.

Sorry to go on so long and I both welcome and appreciate all comments and ideas

Don't be sorry this is the place to run things over with people. If your only young, you still have options. In saying that all I have is forty acres of a milking block. If you had two hundred acres you will have tough periods. I think it would be no harm for you to send away a few cv's just to test the waters

mike hilux

Hello

When it comes to milking cows I can take it or leave it at this stage. I have a few high cell count cows in the herd and for the last couple of years I have been fostering bull calves onto them. so effectively each cow rears what she believes to be her twins. I did this in order to get an extra few friesian hiefer calves.
Truth be told I really like seeing the calves suckling the cow out the field and get a real buzz when they go to the mart.I just enjoy it I'd all I'm saying so part of me would like something to do with cows in the future

As for selling up. Well although iv been within an asses roar of that option many a time I'm just not there yet. I feel iv worked and fought to hard for it so far. When I took over after my uncles death it got fairly messy with my aunt and her family. They were left legacys from the will. When I couldn't pay they tried to takethe tractor one night if it wasn't for the calves balling and the dog barking I wouldn't have woke up and caught them at it. The cousins were stealing diesel out of the tank in the yard also until I filled it with water.I had to change the locks on the house and put a clamp on the car because they said they were collecting the money somehow. I had strangers in saying they had done deals with my uncle for grazing and bought timber out of our wood at the back of the house. I still sleep with the window open.(the coldest I ever got the bedroom down to was 3 degrees. No need to point out I'm single) basically after all that goings on I would find it hard to part ways with the place

From people iv talked to over the past few years different ideas have come to the front
1) sell off half and just keep the bare minimum which is the prospect I'm not really over joyed abou
2)rent it out and get a job and come back in ten years
3) set the land or sell silage off it.

I hate to get out of the animals altogether because I don't know would I be in a position to stock the farm again. We havea closed herd but I did buy a bull lastyear but everything else is home bred.

A man over the road who has dairy and sucklers told me that the dairy pays for running the farm and keeping the animals fed ans the sale of the sucklers is his profit and that's basically hoe it works out for him. This is why in my original post I asked would it be possible to do both on the same cow.

What I mean is that if I went down the montbeliarde road with their big calves and high yields. Milked then once a day and left the calves suck for 6-8 hours. Did this from October to April and then left them off as suckler units to graze the less favourable ground on the outskirts of the farm. Would the winter milk + bonus cover cost of feeding the cow and calf for that period in the shed and then the sale of the cattle work out as a bit of profit .

I know I won't clean up and still probably work part time but I'm just trying ti satisfy my curiosity.
Cheers again (I'll try to keep future posts shorter)

moy83

Do you have a good dog for the intruders , it could be easier than leaving the window open in the winter .
Is zero grazing an option to help milk a few extra cows from the other blocks , there is alot to be said for the milk cheque if you could make the work a bit easier ie a right parlour and housing for the winter

epfff

You need to sit down and write up a 5/10 year plan for yourself
This is for yourself only
Include all aspects of life money women work etc etc
That may help you see are cows part of that
Suckling is not really a runner as no profit
profit
If you chose to stay farming you need to upgrade facilities and budget how they will be paid for to make life easier
I know too many farmers that look 20 years older because if hardship

Belongamick

Welcome Mike.

I think you already have your mind already made up on the milking cows, but you need a little reassurance that the world will not end if you do stop milking.

Time goes by quickly - you are a young man and you have an interest in doing other jobs. If you do not take the chance on the other jobs that you see out there these chances tend to dry up and the people offering them tend to look elsewhere. Many of your current friends also end up moving on with jobs, girlfriends etc.

If you stay at milking with a doubt in your mind that there may be better chances elsewhere you will end up hating the place you have worked so hard to keep.

Personally, if you like cows and calves around the place, keep a few cows and calves close to the center of your land and use the furthur away parts to rear a few lighter cattle and for silage for the winter. This may be too simple/idealistic but anything to 1) Keep you farm and 2) Give yourself a chance to look at another job.

There are many eldest sons in the west of Ireland in their seventies that on the face of it got a great deal as young men when they inherited the family farm. Unfortunately for many life passed them by and now they are living alone resenting the place they put their lifes work into.

Good luck.

frazzledhome

Belongamick wrote: »

Welcome Mike.

I think you already have your mind already made up on the milking cows, but you need a little reassurance that the world will not end if you do stop milking.

Time goes by quickly - you are a young man and you have an interest in doing other jobs. If you do not take the chance on the other jobs that you see out there these chances tend to dry up and the people offering them tend to look elsewhere. Many of your current friends also end up moving on with jobs, girlfriends etc.

If you stay at milking with a doubt in your mind that there may be better chances elsewhere you will end up hating the place you have worked so hard to keep.

Personally, if you like cows and calves around the place, keep a few cows and calves close to the center of your land and use the furthur away parts to rear a few lighter cattle and for silage for the winter. This may be too simple/idealistic but anything to 1) Keep you farm and 2) Give yourself a chance to look at another job.

There are many eldest sons in the west of Ireland in their seventies that on the face of it got a great deal as young men when they inherited the family farm. Unfortunately for many life passed them by and now they are living alone resenting the place they put their lifes work into.

Good luck.

++1

You've made the decision, this is the hard bit now all you need to do is implement it

Sell cows, replace with sucklers and get a job. Life's too short to spend doing something you're not enjoying.

IMV get a job that you enjoy and work the farm in a way that compliments this. Please yourself and phuck the begrudgers and above all best if good luck.

tabby aspreme

Would you consider selling the lot and buying one block with the proceeds, usually small plots make more / acre than big areas of ground , trying to move cows and calves on fragmented land is much harder than docile dairy cows, I think there may be a government / revenue scheme to help with consolidation of farms.

mike hilux

Hello

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and good wishes. Lets say I bite the bullet by the horns and turn away from dairy altogether. I still have this land that I would like to utilise.

Before I came on this site I never really grasped hew bad things seem to be for the typical suckler farmer and his heard so my contingency plan was to breed charolais heifers from out British friesian herd and the stock bull. It would take me only two to three years to build up the suckler herd.

My plan was to build up to about 45 cows on the 84 acres that are made up of the first 2 blocks I described in my first post and use the last remaining 37 acre block to keep maybe 10 replacement heifers and another 20 bullocks until 2 years old. I would aim to calf heifers at two years old and am still leaning towards autumn calving as it would free me up for foaling season if I ever managed to creep back into the horse industry of my misspent youth.

Anyone out there have any insight into this idea of mine. As always any ideas and opinions are greatly appreciated.

keep going

Dont have to answer if you dont want to but how much profit are you maki g out your current system

mike hilux

Hello

I don't mind telling you at all if I really knew myself. On the accounts it said I had a taxable income of just under €5000. Now that takes into account payments on the dept that came with the farm.

That dept is basically paid off now so this year is the first year that I reap what I sow. (the last few years I was like father Ted because "the money was only resting in my account")

Sorry I can't give you a more helpful answer but it's not that I don't want too.

keep going

I hope thats after paying off considerable amount of debt other wise I wouldnt be that lonesome for milking cows.really if you are not making a decent profit there is no point in being at it.did you grow up around there or are there other emotional ties to the area

grazeaway

If you want to work off site then you will need to have a very efficient set up for your animals be that sucklers or dairy. TBH I don't know how lads do dairy and full time off site work unless they have so one to help them out.

Working full time and have sucklers at home my self. All in one block and with a single yard and an ok set up. Wouldn't be able to combine both if it wasn't for the ol lad who is retired now but still very active. Especially during calving season.

Sucklers are as much work during the winter and calving season as dairy cows it really only in summer that the work load goes down.

If you want to keep sucklers then you need to look at consolidating all the housing in one spot. This is something you will need to do for dairying too. From what you are saying about your current set up then I think you need to look at this. Price up what you need for each situation then see how you could make the re payments. You may find that staying in dairying may be more beneficial.

If you stayed in dairying and built a new parlour and housing with plenty of slurry storage could you use a partial zero grazing system? By that I mean graze the cows in the home block only then house them when you need to use the adjoining land and bring the grass from there to them?this would remove having to deal with crossing roads and dealing with people on the road. Then use the outside farm for replacements and silage.

Maybe Look into to renting the outside shed and yard for the winter rather then driving over and back or do like a neighbour of mine who has an old tractor and bale spike for feeding on outside farm.

mike hilux

Hello.

Yes I have paid off a substantial amount of dept over the last few years. It great to have it cleared because it was unsustainable for much longer.

I grew up less than a mile away and was always around. I suppose it was my grand mother that used to bring me off feeding calves and that's how it started. She passed and I never got on with the uncle so I left the area for work when I was old enough but always had an interest in farming.

I returned when the uncle got sick because no one else was going to do it but he would never tell me anything. I wasn't even sure I was getting the farm until he passed and then the solicitor informed me of all the dept.

When it comes to consolidating all sheds into one yard well the heartache is that a good amount of the dept mentioned above was to pay off building work that was done before I came back. Basically iv just paid off one calf house I don't know can I bring myself to build another. But I completly agree that one yard would be so much easier. I used to say it to the mother that he had the place so spread out so he could see what everyone else was doing while he was driving around int the tractor on Christmas day.

I have thought about getting a second tractor alright and wondered about getting a jcb with a back shovel just because there might be more use for it that having two tractors.

Does anyone have any opinions on winter milking as I could bring them in around the shed In September and milk till June. After that they can graze the hilly land while I top up the silage pit.