How to proceed at this junction in Phibsboro when the lights are red

micar

Hi All

Just looking for your opinion.

This junction is on Phibsboro road from Constitution Hill up to Doyle Corner.

As you can see, there is a pedestrian on the other side of the junction.

There is a white line on this side of the road and a yellow box.

When cycling home, i go through this junction.

When the light is red, I stop behind the line waiting for a green light. I have had incidences from motorists who want to turn left who beep me to proceed. All i do is point at the line and the light saying that the light is red. This seriously annoys them.

Today, I waited. A guy in a van wanting to turn left came from behind just as the light turned green. As I proceed to go, he cut across me. I rapped the side of his van with my knuckles. We then had a heated discussion as to how I should proceed at this junction. I threatened to beat me up if I touched his van again.

I have other incidences with car drivers over the last few months.

As you can see I am entitled to be in the left hand lane.

What am I supposed to go when the light is red?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.358525,-6.273301,3a,75y,25.43h,69.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9elJwMAR4XCxeAmygHobyw!2e0

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.358366,-6.273351,3a,75y,25.43h,69.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8IxjhxVJLHHrYSrq2iqjSQ!2e0

07Lapierre

I wouldn't stop at that junction. Even if the traffic is stopped, on a bike you can still cross the yellow box and proceed.

GG66

The yellow box is to stop cars going your direction from blocking people trying to exit or enter the street to your left. They should not enter it if there is no room to exit it in front of them

You have a bicycle lane ahead of you with no obstruction and if I were you I would continue ahead while keeping an eye out for cars cutting in form your right.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but If you are going straight isn't the right hand lane for this? Is the the left lane in this case for traffic turning left?

cython

07Lapierre wrote: »

I wouldn't stop at that junction. Even if the traffic is stopped, on a bike you can still cross the yellow box and proceed.

Not technically if you are faced with a red light (presumably to allow pedestrians across the crossing on the far side):

micar wrote: »

....

When the light is red, I stop behind the line waiting for a green light. I have had incidences from motorists who want to turn left who beep me to proceed. All i do is point at the line and the light saying that the light is red. This seriously annoys them.

Today, I waited. A guy in a van wanting to turn left came from behind just as the light turned green. As I proceed to go, he cut across me. I rapped the side of his van with my knuckles. We then had a heated discussion as to how I should proceed at this junction. I threatened to beat me up if I touched his van again.

I have other incidences with car drivers over the last few months.

As you can see I am entitled to be in the left hand lane.

What am I supposed to go when the light is red?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.358525,-6.273301,3a,75y,25.43h,69.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9elJwMAR4XCxeAmygHobyw!2e0

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.358366,-6.273351,3a,75y,25.43h,69.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8IxjhxVJLHHrYSrq2iqjSQ!2e0

OP, in that scenario I would probably take the right hand side of the lane as much as possible when stopping, and even pull into the left hand side of the right lane if possible. Obviously if there was a car waiting to go straight the drivers would have to wait behind, but since they are less inclined to do so for a cyclist, I would put myself out of their way as much as possible. I follow a similar approach heading south on SSG East when I get to Leeson Street junction, and wait just to the right of the lane box, rather than being stopped on the inside of left turning buses.

EDIT: on closer inspection, it actually looks as though only the crossing is light controlled, and the junction is only indirectly light controlled by virtue of proximity. In that case I would actually do as others have suggested and proceed to the far side of the yellow box, and stop at the crossing itself.

micar

ronoc wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but If you are going straight isn't the right hand lane for this? Is the the left lane in this case for traffic turning left?

no, there is a bus lane all the way up this road. So, taxis and buses are usually in this lane.

Near this junction, there is a filter that allows car turning left to go into the left hand lane.

I seriously hate this junction!!!!!!!!

micar

micar wrote: »

no, there is a bus lane all the way up this road. So, taxis and buses are usually in this lane.

Near this junction, there is a filter that allows car turning left to go into the left hand lane.

I seriously hate this junction!!!!!!!!

I would probably move up to the pedestrian crossing in the yellow box. Less aggravation all round but technically not what your are supposed to do. The law is an ass in this case.

CatFromHue

You're not going to win what ever you do tbh.

butterworth

I pass through here every day. I'm pretty sure you're meant to wait at the solid white line before the yellow box regardless of whether or not you're intending to turn left, since the line is placed before the corner. I rarely see left-turning cars follow this rule, though. I'd say most of them are unaware.

buffalo

Legally, this is what applies from S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012:

30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 001, RTS 002, RTS 003, RTS 004 or RTS 013 (referred to in these Regulations as ‘traffic lights’) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 (stop line) where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

That stop line before the junction is associated with those lights, and therefore any traffic - cyclists and left-turning vehicles included - should stop before the junction. To proceed through the stop line when the lights are red is an offence.

In practice, I imagine most people see the stop line as being 'at' the traffic lights, and as long as they don't stop in the yellow box (i.e. left-turning traffic), they're grand.

As a cyclist who is going straight ahead, you've every right to plonk yourself down at the front of the left lane, and block all bigger traffic - much like a taxi or bus going straight ahead would (by the nature of their size).

However, I would place myself to the right of the left lane (not far enough for someone to pass inside you), and if I heard a vehicle approaching, check whether they're indicating to go left. If yes, move over a bit more and let them out if they're looking to move (saving their soul from their illegality is not worth the aggro you'll get.). If not, stay where you are.

Budawanny

Completely agree with Buffalo. whiles the OP is entitled to stay in the centre of the lane,
Its definitely not the wise thing to do. Let the law breakers go left if they want,
otherwise your in danger of getting beaten up by a fat man in a van.

T-Maxx

I agree withy Buffalo. Only thing is you got to watch out for vehicles in the left lane not turning left but going straight ahead. I know one lane disappears but there's no line markings it seems so you might find yourself squeezed in occasionally.

One thing I would do is try to get my timing right so I catch this light green.

Going through the yellow box as some has suggested is not only against the ROR but also very dangerous as people might not see you and not expect you to run the light.

(edit: I see on the second pic that there are actually arrows so both lanes can go straight)

CramCycle

T-Maxx wrote: »

Going through the yellow box as some has suggested is not only against the ROR but also very dangerous as people might not see you and not expect you to run the light.

Agree 100% if traffic is stopped due to lights, then they won't expect it and could lead to a nasty accident. If there is left turning traffic as you approach, move to the left of the right lane at the top, if both traffic lanes are stopped, stay in the left lane IMO. This said, if the light is red, the cars should not turn left as the solid line indicates the place to stop for the red but whether people do this or not is another story.

curlzy

When I come to something like that that I'm not sure of I get off my bike and get onto the path and walk the bike across and then get back on my bike on the other side of the road when it's safe to get back on the road. But I'm probably a bit paranoid because I'm cycling less than a year. Also it'd be a pain if you're in a hurry.

droidus

I go this way every day. If there is traffic in the left hand lane waiting to turn left I either move into the right hand lane and wait there or roll forward to the front of the yellow box just in front of the pedestrian crossing.

You get a lot of people sneaking into the bus lane early to go left there, but even so, it doesn't seem reasonable to sit in the left hand lane preventing people from turning.

droidus

Oh, and the only vehicles that should be going straight in the left hand lane are buses or taxis.

cython

droidus wrote: »

Oh, and the only vehicles that should be going straight in the left hand lane are buses or taxis.

There is nothing in the road markings to suggest that. When the lane opens, there is a left or straight on marking, and there is no bus lane (just the one driving lane and a bus stop/cycle lane) on the far side of the junction, so traffic from both lanes is expected to merge. The sensible approach here would be for the left hand lane to be left turn only, and buses and taxis to merge right to go straight on.

droidus

Its a bus lane all the way from constitution hill to about 20 metres before this turn, and immediately goes to one lane after the turn, opening up to two lanes again a little further down before the NCR.

So effectively, the only time anyone ever goes straight on there is when they've sneaked all the way up the bus lane. In 5 years of cycling that route almost every day I have never seen anyone leave the right hand lane to join the left hand lane at that point and then continue straight.

Lumen

Normally I'd do on a bike what I'd do in a car, which is put myself in the middle of the RH lane and wait behind the solid line until the light is green and the yellow box is clear.

The wrinkle is that's there's usually going to be some turdspanner who pulls up alongside in the LH lane and thinks "great, a cyclist, I can beat him to the other side of the yellow box" when the light goes green.

The only legal response to this is to move off slowly and cross behind him/her to the LH lane to enter the cycle lane. You run the risk of multuple turdspanners undertaking to queuing up in the yellow box, but it's only a momentary inconvenience and gives the opportunity for some weary indignation which is a normal part of any cycle commute.

Sitting in between the two lanes to allow cars to pass doesn't improve anything IMO, and holding up left turning traffic is unnecessary and a bit antisocial.

italodisco

Sorry op but it's the likes of you that make cyclists look like bike w#nkers.

Sometimes it's not about who's bloody right.

Drivers are b%#tards at the best if times , cyclists too but sometimes just think
-will this cause hell
Followed by
-is it easily avoided.

Take the stress free option .

All this fighting to be 'right' on the roads is ridiculous

I'm a cyclist btw

buffalo

italodisco wrote: »

All this fighting to be 'right' on the roads is ridiculous

I'm a cyclist btw

Speaking as a mother, I like to do what's right and legal.

Lumen

italodisco wrote: »

Sorry op but it's the likes of you that make cyclists look like bike w#nkers.

Sometimes it's not about who's bloody right.

...

All this fighting to be 'right' on the roads is ridiculous

Congratulations on entirely missing the point.

The question was "What am [sic] I supposed to go when the light is red?". It's about what is the right thing to do, and if more people were this thoughtful the roads would be a less stressful place to be.

07Lapierre

cython wrote: »

Not technically if you are faced with a red light (presumably to allow pedestrians across the crossing on the far side):

*Since when did a red (Pedestrian) light stop a cyclist?




* I take your point though...not the nicest of junctions (But I would still cycle thru the yellow box if i could)

nomdeboardie

italodisco wrote: »

Sorry op but it's the likes of you that make cyclists look like bike w#nkers.

Sometimes it's not about who's bloody right.

Drivers are b%#tards at the best if times , cyclists too but sometimes just think
-will this cause hell
Followed by
-is it easily avoided.

Take the stress free option .

All this fighting to be 'right' on the roads is ridiculous

I'm a cyclist btw

Sounds to me that the OP is trying to figure out what's safe, legal and sensible/considerate by posting the query :rolleyes:

OP, I were you I’d write to ask the council for clarification, maybe even giving the link for this thread. (I’d do it myself only I haven’t been out that way.) I’d be interested, as a cyclist and a motorist, to know the answer in case I encounter a similar junction in the future!

CramCycle

italodisco wrote: »

Sorry op but it's the likes of you that make cyclists look like bike w#nkers.

Wonkers look like wonkers, cyclist or motorists don't look like wonkers, wonkers who cycle or drive look like wonkers.

All this fighting to be 'right' on the roads is ridiculous
I'm a cyclist btw

Not fighting (not sure where you got that), but inquiring.

Not just right but safer, the road squeezes into one lane. If the left lane was left turn only then staying in the right lane is safer and the right thing to do. Since it is left or straight on, you run the risk of drivers trying to beat the queue speeding through and not expecting you. Do drivers turning left get annoyed by taxis/buses.

I would take the right lane but close to the left side so as to be seen or like Lumen be cautious with the take off to watch out for the muppet brigade but staying in the left lane is equally safe and just as correct.

buffalo wrote: »

Speaking as a mother, I like to do what's right and legal.

giggles galore

Dermot Illogical

I would continue across the junction. There's enough room for a bike to stop between the yellow box and the pedestrian crossing. If that's blocked there's enough room to the left of the yellow box for a bike. The last place I'd want to be is stopped just before that turn as the amount of traffic going that way is quite large.

CramCycle

nomdeboardie wrote: »

OP, I were you I’d write to ask the council for clarification, maybe even giving the link for this thread. (I’d do it myself only I haven’t been out that way.) I’d be interested, as a cyclist and a motorist, to know the answer in case I encounter a similar junction in the future!

I was under the impression that you would have to stop even if turning left when there is a red light but in my understanding there should be a third set of traffic lights on the closer side of the junction so no one gets confused or better still a filter light and a left turn only "except buses, taxis and cyclists". Wouldn't mind some clarification myself.

.ak

micar wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.358525,-6.273301,3a,75y,25.43h,69.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9elJwMAR4XCxeAmygHobyw!2e0

Just do what that guy is doing.... cycle on the footpath!

Nah seriously, I just pretend I'm a car in those situations, cycle in the middle of the right lane, wait for light etc., etc. That way the 'law' is always on your side. What would they do if it was a car trying to go forward waiting for the light?

Although to be frank, I'd wait until there was no on-coming traffic and probably go through the red. If there's no traffic or pedestrians I generally cycle through reds (after stopping).

General rule of the road is to worry about what's infront of you, not what's behind you. Let them worry about that.

nomdeboardie

.ak wrote: »

Just do what that guy is doing.... cycle on the footpath!

Nah seriously, I just pretend I'm a car in those situations, cycle in the middle of the right lane, wait for light etc., etc. That way the 'law' is always on your side. What would they do if it was a car trying to go forward waiting for the light?

Although to be frank, I'd wait until there was no on-coming traffic and probably go through the red. If there's no traffic or pedestrians I generally cycle through reds (after stopping).

General rule of the road is to worry about what's infront of you, not what's behind you. Let them worry about that.

But if you weren't worried about what is behind you, you wouldn't neeed to move out into the right lane

Having said that, I might do this too - treat the left lane as a de-facto left-turn-only and get into the right

.ak

True... Well, the thing is in your situation, what's behind you becomes what's beside you. If you're in the right lane they have to be behind you.