if you have a earned a black belt without any proper sparing or fighting experience

shadowcomplex

Will you not be great in a proper fight or if get attacked on the street by a thug?

Dermighty

How you train is more important than your belt colour, in my opinion.

Learning to apply technique against a resisting opponent is more important than your belt colour.

i.e. Assuming running away isn't an option (it's the best option by far!) Hard sparring is more functional in a "street fight" (call it what you like) than drilling katas.

Just to add that you can still get beaten up by someone regardless of your belt or training. A black belt covers two inches of your ass, you have to cover the rest said someone smarter than I am.

Mellor

Not all MAs have the same focus, so not all black belts mean the sane thing.
Black belt is a catch all term anyway, it's a meaningless phrase if removed from the MA is question.

In some MAs you simply can't achieve a black belt without proper fighting or sparring experience. Judo & BJJ for example. Sambo and sanda don't have a belt system, but the above still applies.

On the other hand, some MAs are demonstration based, almost artistic. A black belt here isn't a fighting rank, so unless anybody is making claims about fighting - what does it matter?

gctest50

this 19 year old drunk man snapped the PC's leg badly - end of career, won't be walking to the donut shop with those pins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEUOcwtLxgA

[IMG][/img]

Mellor

gctest50 wrote: »

this 19 year old drunk man snapped the PC's leg badly - end of career, won't be walking to the donut shop with those pins

What has that got to do with martial arts?
Looks like the cop fell in an unfortunately way during a struggle and blew his knee.
Apologies if im missing something, hard to make out the detail on my phone.

SVJKarate

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Will you not be great in a proper fight or if get attacked on the street by a thug?

In traditional Japanese karate the black belt is awarded as an indication that you had mastered the basic components of the art and you were now ready to learn the more advanced aspects, including the application of the art in fighting. Western clubs often throw layers of 'mystique' and respect for the black belt which it truly does not deserve.

Of course it's an achievement, but it is not an end and certainly does not guarantee that you can defend yourself against somebody who has the strength and determination to do you harm. Many associations test only basic sparring skills for the black belt exam, often in the form of pre-arranged attack-and-defend combinations.

The question is not whether or not you will be great in an attack situation, but whether you are better prepared than you were before you embarked on learning a MA. Some people are physically more adept at causing harm to others, and others less so. With enough training almost anyone can achieve a black belt, but they may be physically challenged in terms of defending themselves against an aggressive attacker.

Niall Keane

Belt System was originally invented by Judo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank_in_Judo

my understanding is that originally there were only white and black, beginner and adept, and classes were separated for sparring to protect beginners? Perhaps someone more clued in to Judo's history can explain?

As for all the other colours and then dan rankings...
the cynical might view it as a income generator, but I believe many find such a structure to be a useful motivator.

belt system spread from Judo into other Japanese arts initially and now even many Chinese Martial Arts use "sash" systems echoing the Japanese.

When oriental martial arts first came to the west, the blackbelt was hailed as an indicator of mastery, and became very sought after. One should bear in mind the expression: "Even a hawk can be an eagle amongst crows!"

The unscrupulous of course saw a gap in the market to basically "sell" blackbelts, after all most people are lazy and value appearance over substance. This has reached a point where today there exist online organisations who do so for a few hundred after a test - being an emailed self video of demonstrating a few kicks and punches - this is certainly meaningless!

Also politics seems inevitable in Martial Arts, lots of people seeking to be the Dragonhead on top of the mountain, delusion is part of humanity after all. This has resulted in systems breaking up and what ever, and what better way to rally the troops to your cause than bribing them with a promotion?

Personally over the past 20 years I've trained and taught in many gyms, universities etc. Though practicing Tai Chi Chuan, an art many dismiss, I have only a handful of times seen classes beside me where other arts engaged in training with resistance, wrestling etc. and even fewer that actually sparred (heavy sparing, not touchy touchy semi light skim-milk martial arts.) Sambo, BJJ and Judo all wrestled alot, Boxing and Muay Thai sparred alot, and obviously we did ourselves, I have never seen other arts do so, not that I've seen every art out there, I'm limited to my own experience, but like I said I did coach in universities and they tend to have a lot of MAs training in broken up large spaces! Lots and lots of blackbelts! ;-)

SVJKarate

Niall Keane wrote: »

This has reached a point where today there exist online organisations who do so for a few hundred after a test - being an emailed self video of demonstrating a few kicks and punches - this is certainly meaningless!

I often muse why there is not a 24-hour dojo in Las Vegas that offers black belt gradings, in much the same manner as they offer weddings. It would be a great business model. Useless belts of course, but a great money-earner!

DublinArnie

Someone who has trained for two years constantly is better than a black belt who hasn't trained for two years, in my opinion.

Like the above posters said, a black belt is just a piece of cotton. It's the training you put in that gives any belt significant meaning to you. Fighting should be mandatory for all higher belts I believe.

Plastikman_eire

Mellor wrote: »

What has that got to do with martial arts?
Looks like the cop fell in an unfortunately way during a struggle and blew his knee.
Apologies if im missing something, hard to make out the detail on my phone.

Damn, was expecting a kneebar.

MartyMcFly84

Me too, was holding out for a rolling knee bar. A little disappointed when the police office just fell over.

Niall Keane

SVJKarate wrote: »

I often muse why there is not a 24-hour dojo in Las Vegas that offers black belt gradings, in much the same manner as they offer weddings. It would be a great business model. Useless belts of course, but a great money-earner!

not entirely useless..... it helps with club insurance if you are out on your own, and sometimes employment in sports / fitness centres.

Before I started teaching in a national university, I was asked to provide my qualifications to teach Tai Chi Chuan, (had I a blackbelt was a question asked of the student club) and of course my insurance. there are no belts in TCC but I obviously had enough docmentation to prove that I was qualifed to teach, likewise having already coaching insurance etc.

BUT.... some don't, not sure they would get away with it in a national university, but I KNOW of people who bought their belt to teach in gyms, and be able to get insurance, because noone else would acredit them!

Like all unregulated industries cowboys are everywhere, poor to medium coaching ability is the norm, some cowboys have learned from their blackbelt experience and now run courses to certify others to teach!!! I sh1t you not! What is most interesting is that the public seem to prefer the McDojo approach, perhaps it is encouraging to have rubbish blackbelts teaching, and a clear non-stressful path to "recognised" results? In my experience beginners who come down to fighter gyms often pack it up on the first night, its too demanding and the level of everyone else seems unatainable, in contrast to the McDojo where all that is required is to learn (the sequence of) a handful of short forms / katas, and have compliant partners to coreograph truely "fantastic" moves with, get the blackbelt and BELIEVE, really BELIEVE it means something!

MagicIRL

I train with four blackbelts in one of my martial arts. Two of them are useless in a fight. We sparred briefly and even I, having not sparred since a child doing kickboxing, overwhlemed them with basic technique that I had had beat in to me in sparring sessions past.

Regardless of belt colour, if you do not spar, you will not win a fight.

Tuisceanch

If you are looking to earn a living from training a martial art then you probably might have your aspirations severely dented when you realize that it takes effort,patience and time to reach a level where you have something which is worth teaching and that you are capable of teaching. However,if you want to escape the dull 9 to 5 existence of your office job and teach martial arts on sunny beaches in paradise and you want it NOW then it's better to suspend your better judgement and common sense (assuming you had any in the first place) and join a school which will allow you to become a teacher,maybe even award you the title of Sifu,by attending a few weekend seminars a couple of times a year, for at most two years, for a couple of thousand euros and HEY PRESTO ..you start advertising your own 'expertise' for consumption offering such useful skills as being able to defend oneself from someone having the good manners to throw a limp punch somewhere in your vicinity which, without moving your wooden legs, you can flap your paw at and disable them with a less than swift poke to their chest with your highly trained and deadly pinky force.More advanced practitioners will simple flap their arms like a demented crane and overpower their opponent with their loving Qi thus curing them of their physical ailments and removing the cause for their angry and violent behaviour. As more teachers (Sifus) are trained, the exponential growth of their karmic martial ability will transform the world into a paradise for everybody and history and time will be no more. Fantasy!? ..Not at all!!!..it's happening somewhere near you as I write. Can't write anymore as my cult only allows me 5 minutes on the internet each day in order to spread the word. It's in the interest of saving energy and consequently the planet.

P.S. The technique of 'Demented Crane Flaps it's wings' is to be found in the ancient Mongolian internal martial art of 'GreenTeaChaun' and it is that technique which I have described above. However,this technique is also used in more external styles where the only difference being that your opponent is overcome by your BO.It's a subtle difference I know and perhaps I should start a new thread on the subject which could consume many terabytes of database space and leave nobody the wiser but all feeling slightly depressed and disillusioned.

SVJKarate

Niall Keane wrote: »

What is most interesting is that the public seem to prefer the McDojo approach, perhaps it is encouraging to have rubbish blackbelts teaching, and a clear non-stressful path to "recognised" results?

This has been the most depressing aspect of teaching for me. Some students (or their parents in the case of younger students) are simply mad keen to get a higher belt but not keen to train hard enough to earn it. Some parents of kids who have poor coordination or attention are astounded if we refuse to let their kid go forward for grading, and quite a number will drop out of the club if they think that they could get another instructor to give them a belt. At SVJ Karate Club we do not grade the students ourselves, but instead present the students to visiting Japanese instructors (or occasionally highly ranked Irish examiners) so we do not dare to present a student who is not clearly up to the level.

Mouthalmighty

Tuisceanch wrote: »

If you are looking to earn a living from training a martial art then you probably might have your aspirations severely dented when you realize that it takes effort,patience and time to reach a level where you have something which is worth teaching and that you are capable of teaching. However,if you want to escape the dull 9 to 5 existence of your office job and teach martial arts on sunny beaches in paradise and you want it NOW then it's better to suspend your better judgement and common sense (assuming you had any in the first place) and join a school which will allow you to become a teacher,maybe even award you the title of Sifu,by attending a few weekend seminars a couple of times a year, for at most two years, for a couple of thousand euros and HEY PRESTO ..you start advertising your own 'expertise' for consumption offering such useful skills as being able to defend oneself from someone having the good manners to throw a limp punch somewhere in your vicinity which, without moving your wooden legs, you can flap your paw at and disable them with a less than swift poke to their chest with your highly trained and deadly pinky force.More advanced practitioners will simple flap their arms like a demented crane and overpower their opponent with their loving Qi thus curing them of their physical ailments and removing the cause for their angry and violent behaviour. As more teachers (Sifus) are trained, the exponential growth of their karmic martial ability will transform the world into a paradise for everybody and history and time will be no more. Fantasy!? ..Not at all!!!..it's happening somewhere near you as I write. Can't write anymore as my cult only allows me 5 minutes on the internet each day in order to spread the word. It's in the interest of saving energy and consequently the planet.

P.S. The technique of 'Demented Crane Flaps it's wings' is to be found in the ancient Mongolian internal martial art of 'GreenTeaChaun' and it is that technique which I have described above. However,this technique is also used in more external styles where the only difference being that your opponent is overcome by your BO.It's a subtle difference I know and perhaps I should start a new thread on the subject which could consume many terabytes of database space and leave nobody the wiser but all feeling slightly depressed and disillusioned.

Now that's sarcasm!! Love it!!

If you haven't sparred or competed and have a black belt then as a previous poster said it is just a piece of cotton. The politics are ridiculous in MA. I know a guy who has a black belt in a MA who never fought anyone or anything! Then he became an instructor and was, as far as I can see, training people to dance IMHO! total joke. But the people he taught thought they were invincible and one of them got seriously hurt in a row!

CIARAN_BOYLE

SVJKarate wrote: »

This has been the most depressing aspect of teaching for me. Some students (or their parents in the case of younger students) are simply mad keen to get a higher belt but not keen to train hard enough to earn it. Some parents of kids who have poor coordination or attention are astounded if we refuse to let their kid go forward for grading, and quite a number will drop out of the club if they think that they could get another instructor to give them a belt. At SVJ Karate Club we do not grade the students ourselves, but instead present the students to visiting Japanese instructors (or occasionally highly ranked Irish examiners) so we do not dare to present a student who is not clearly up to the level.

While not required I think that this is always a good sign.