Tyres - rotate or not rotate?

bazz26

Folks, seems to be a very debatable topic with various answers depending on who you speak to so no real clear cut answer.

Basically I currently have 2 Toyo C1S tyres on the front with about 5mm left on them. Have 1 Michelin PS3 with about 6/6.5mm and 1 Conti Contact Sport 3 with about 3mm left on the rear. I'm finding that the rear side that the Conti is starting to loose a bit of grip in the corners so it's time to replace it with a new Michelin to keep the same thread on the same axle.

My question is that I was thinking of moving the two Michelins to the front because the logic would dictate to keep the better tyres with more thread and superior grip on the front of a fwd car as opposed to putting them on the rear. Car is a 170bhp fwd diesel btw.

Any thoughts or am I opening up a can of worms on this subject?

mickdw

bazz26 wrote: »

Folks, seems to be a very debatable topic with various answers depending on who you speak to so no real clear cut answer.

Basically I currently have 2 Toyo C1S tyres on the front with about 5mm left on them. Have 1 Michelin PS3 with about 6/6.5mm and 1 Conti Contact Sport 3 with about 3mm left on the rear. I'm finding that the rear side that the Conti is starting to loose a bit of grip in the corners so it's time to replace it with a new Michelin to keep the same thread on the same axle.

My question is that I was thinking of moving the two Michelins to the front because the logic would dictate to keep the better tyres with more thread and superior grip on the front of a fwd car as opposed to putting them on the rear. Car is a 170bhp fwd diesel btw.

Any thoughts or am I opening up a can of worms on this subject?

It seems industry advice is to place new tyres on the rear to promote understeer at all times as it's judged as being easier to control for the c average driver.
I certainly don't agree and would put new tyres to front, all else being equal.
The way I see it, they are doing the steering and the most breaking and in your case powering the car also. Given that the front wheel will have to deal with majority of water displacement, I think deeper thread on front is the way to go.

bazz26

mickdw wrote: »

It seems industry advice is to place new tyres on the rear to promote understeer at all times as it's judged as being easier to control for the c average driver.
I certainly don't agree and would put new tyres to front, all else being equal.
The way I see it, they are doing the steering and the most breaking and in your case powering the car also. Given that the front wheel will have to deal with majority of water displacement, I think deeper thread on front is the way to go.

That is my train of thought also.

Skatedude

Are you seriously mixing tyre types on the rear? why would you do that?

djimi

mickdw wrote: »

It seems industry advice is to place new tyres on the rear to promote understeer at all times as it's judged as being easier to control for the c average driver.
I certainly don't agree and would put new tyres to front, all else being equal.
The way I see it, they are doing the steering and the most breaking and in your case powering the car also. Given that the front wheel will have to deal with majority of water displacement, I think deeper thread on front is the way to go.

Yup I would agree with that. In a FWD car the front wheel do all the work, so I want the best tires on the front. Oversteer is not exactly much of an issue in most FWD cars anyway (I drive one of the more powerful FWD cars that you are going to encounter and oversteer has never even once been an issue for me), so I really wouldnt be factoring it as an issue when determining the placement of tires in a FWD car.

Phil_Lives

Plan the date you will dispose of the car and aim to have enough thread on every corner to sell on at that point without it being a haggling point.

visual

I rotate tyres on my Jeep as its permient AWD
it also includes the spare tyre in the rotation
every 6 to 10k (tyres rated for 50k miles)

this allows me have 5 tyres of same brand and same wear level on all tyres. Of course I had to splash out on 5 new tyres and when they are wore out I'll have to splash out on 5 again.


In your situation its not really a rotation more a swap.

I rather the better tyres on front as its eaiser to control over steer than under steer and 75% of your braking is on front wheels.

bazz26

Skatedude wrote: »

Are you seriously mixing tyre types on the rear? why would you do that?

Long story short, the rear originally had 2 Contis but the previous owner replaced one with a brand new Michelin not long before I bought the car. The Conti had a good 5 or 6mm of thread on it at the time and the car was behaving as it should until recently due to the Conti wearing down a few more mm.

I'm not one for skimping on tyres and I am quite proactive on keeping tabs on the condition of my tyres but in this case it didn't make sense to replace one good tyre on the rear just because it was a different brand to the other and the car was not performing poorly as a result. However now it needs replacing as it is loosing it's effectiveness so I will replace it with the same make and model as on the other side and both will be moved to the front of the car.

bazz26

Phil_Lives wrote: »

Plan the date you will dispose of the car and aim to have enough thread on every corner to sell on at that point without it being a haggling point.

Being honest, I don't care about the next owner. I always have decent tyres on my car with ample amounts of thread irrespective of whether I am selling it or not.

CJhaughey

OT but... its not thread, its tread.
Thread is what you use to sew.
Treads are the rubber blocks that are stuck to the tyre carcass.

Tyre threads might be the frayed ends of the polyester belting that makes up a carcass.

bazz26

Pulled over by the grammar police... :pac:

CJhaughey

bazz26 wrote: »

Pulled over by the grammar police... :pac:

Not grammar, spelling.

biko

Back on topic folks.

I agree with the industry and not with previous posters, put new tyres on the back.
This is because when you're driving in the wet you'll feel the fronts slip way ahead of the rears slip and be able to correct your driving.
Having best grip on rear means safer driving in the wet, for you - but more for everyone else around you.

The simple reason why..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--Hb5kQCaTg

visual

I am still not convinced rear is best as when the front slip steering and brakes are impacted.
Abs will be working overtime as car goes in wrong dirrection.

Rear slipping can be easier to correct by steering into slide. Drift cars would be an extreem example but its same principle.

The only cars ive notice the back letting go with bad tyres was rwd

mickdw

biko wrote: »

Back on topic folks.

I agree with the industry and not with previous posters, put new tyres on the back.
This is because when you're driving in the wet you'll feel the fronts slip way ahead of the rears slip and be able to correct your driving.
Having best grip on rear means safer driving in the wet, for you - but more for everyone else around you.

The simple reason why..

New tyres on the rear is a more idiot proof setup and that is why it is recommended across the board.
Its a matter of choice for any given driver but for me, water displacement capability is the key to it. The front will encounter the water first and needs tread depth to deal with it. The rears following a similar path will have less water to deal with.
Perhaps in a powerful rear drive car, there would be an argument for new tyres on rear but certainly with front drive, I like to have a bit of grip up front and can then play around with the front of the car abit.
Right this minulte, Ive got end of life tyres on the front and new on the back - just the way it worked out as I dont use the same tyres front and back so rotating is not an option. If I was to push hard in the wet with this setup, it would be very easy to get myself into trouble. New tyres are coming for the front asap.

sunnysoutheast

I have always put the new tyres on the rear and the part-worn rears on the front with FWD. It's fairly easy as there is a constant cycle rear-front as they wear. With RWD I try to rotate them in-life to avoid having the better tyres on the front but it's a bit of a nuisance and with asymmetric sizes like Msport it's impossible.

This seems to be akin to a religious war on the internet, I think 5th gear had an interesting programme on it.

GTE

djimi wrote: »

Oversteer is not exactly much of an issue in most FWD cars anyway (I drive one of the more powerful FWD cars that you are going to encounter and oversteer has never even once been an issue for me), so I really wouldnt be factoring it as an issue when determining the placement of tires in a FWD car.

True, however the view of the placement of more tread depth to the rear is with respect to lessening the possibility of oversteer caused by aquaplaning rather than normal conditions, which as you imply would take a lot to create.

The advice of new tyres on the rear would mean that in extreme conditions, the rear would be lost last, meaning vehicle stability is guaranteed for longer.

Seems to me that it is similar to having ABS or a headrest, by that I mean a thing which is rarely used from a safety point of view.

Given all tyres have a safe tread depth, its doubtful the fronts would be overwhelmed and aquaplane very often if ever, but if they did then having the rear in check allows for deceleration and the chance for the aquaplaning tyre to come back into its water displacement window.

How rare one would "benefit" is probably why its so debatable.

Esel

+1 for newer tyres on the rear.

biko

mickdw wrote: »

Perhaps in a powerful rear drive car, there would be an argument for new tyres on rear but certainly with front drive, I like to have a bit of grip up front and can then play around with the front of the car abit.

I know it seem counter-intuitive but this is the reason to have better grip on the rear regardless of fwd or rwd, to prevent the rear from losing grip while cornering in rain.
The method is not there for you to be quicker to take off or steer better, it's there to keep the rear from swinging out and causing an accident.
A driver is quicker to feel the fronts slipping, and correcting it, than feeling the rear slipping.

pred racer

New tyres on the front for me.
Never had any problem with tyres getting towards the limit of their life on the rear of any car I've owned, put the same nearly finished tyres on the front and you'd be all over the place!

djimi

biko wrote: »

I know it seem counter-intuitive but this is the reason to have better grip on the rear regardless of fwd or rwd, to prevent the rear from losing grip while cornering in rain.
The method is not there for you to be quicker to take off or steer better, it's there to keep the rear from swinging out and causing an accident.
A driver is quicker to feel the fronts slipping, and correcting it, than feeling the rear slipping.

In a FWD car though you are more likely to get understeer on older front tires in the wet than you are to get oversteer with older rear tires. I have driven FWD cars of varying performance for all of my driving life and have never even once felt that I was going to lose the arse of a car in the wet. I have though, on numerous occasions, experienced the front starting to give. I understand the theory behind it, but from my experience in normal driving conditions (ie not hammering cars into corners full pelt in the wet), and assuming the rear tires are in reasonably good nick (ie not racing slicks) then I dont think oversteer is ever going to be as much of an issue as understeer for a FWD car. Certainly, its better to me anyway to know that my braking and steering wheels are more firmly planted on the road than it is to know that I am somewhat lessening the chance of something happening that probably wont happen to start with.