Serious difference of opinion with friend

LegacyUser

HI,

Im going unregd for this as its quite a sensitive topic. My good friend and I were chatting on a walk with our kids the other day and the topic of vaccines came up ( I REALLY dont want this to become a pro/anti vaccine debate as thats irrelevant to the issue)
Anyway she said she has absolutely no intention of vaccinating her 18 month old. She vaccinated her now 4 year old, who is permanently sick, possibly poor immune system, and the child had bad reactions to some vaccines (mainly the 12 month and 13 month one) so shes decided not to vaccinate her other child. Now I responded with I fully intended to vaccinate my 4 month old, as I hoped it would protect him from some horrible diseases as well as protect other children/people who couldnt vaccinate. She said that the vaccines were full of harmful things and the diseases werent that bad anyway (i thought tht was a nutty statement to make but anyway). It was your standard pro/anti vacc debate. We both had close family anecdotes to back up our reasoning and we ended the conversation on good terms.

the problem I have is this: I have had a pit in my stomach ever since our conversation. I sort of feel shes putting my baby in danger so to speak? One of her comments during the convo was that she didnt care about other peoples kids only her own. And I thoroughly believed her. What about when I next get pregnant? Id be terrified to visit her and her kids. Its silly and i know quite unlikely that her kids would pick up something and then give it to me or mine, but it does happen. Her child gets everything going.

How do I come to terms with this? Is the friendship over? I couldnt possibly change her mind so thats not an option. How have other people dealt with serious difference of opinions like this?

Thanks

jimmycrackcorm

you're getting your kids vaccinated but you're worried they'll catch something from hers?

surely it's the other way round. quite frankly it's none of your business whether she chooses to vaccinate her own kids.

Typer Monkey

Babies aren't vaccinated against measles, for example, until they are a year old. If they were exposed to measles before this age they would be terribly sick. Measles is an awful thing. I had it as a child before there was a vaccine and my mother still speaks of it with horror.

OP you could share your fears with her but you've already stated your case and she's stated hers so if it's something that worries you, you may just have to avoid her until your children are vaccinated.

Tokyo

I too am wondering what your concerns are - as long as you have your children vaccinated (as is your right), then it shouldn't matter whether she vaccinates her children or not (as is her right) - they will be protected by the vaccine.

Without getting into the pro/anti vaccine debate, I think that there is room in the world for a healthy approach that takes both sides into account. The world isn't a sterile place, never has been, and even your friend did vaccinate her children, they will still come in contact with other children in school, at the park, the supermarket, etc etc. Short of keeping them in a bubble they will become exposed to various illnesses throughout their childhood - it's part of growing up.

You've chosen to vaccinate your children. Once you have that should be the end of it really - you have done your duty to your kids as you see fit. It's certainly nothing to destroy a friendship over.

dalta5billion

Not starting a debate here, but clearly she has had a really, really bad scare, and you have to respect her feelings on the matter. The decision to vaccinate has to come from her - an intervention will just make things worse.

A few kids in my school had parents who were in the medical profession refuse permission for the swine flu vaccine because they were unhappy with the research backing it up. And look what happened - 60 kids developed narcolepsy. So poo-pooing your friends concerns would not be a good idea.

Has she gotten medical advice on the constantly sick child? Sounds like she needs to find out for herself exactly why the child got sick.

LegacyUser

The problem I have that was already mentioned is during the time before my child is fully vaccinated, or if I find myself pregnant again. After that I probably wouldnt mind as much.

I fully believe in her choice not to vaccinate, and I understand her reasons for not wanting to based on her personal experiences. It never got into an issue in the conversation of me telling her she had to vaccinate at all or anything like that.

I have had myself a number of personal experiences - cervical cancer, 2 TB events, and Men C. anyway its not about the pro/anti debate.

How do I quell my fears / tell her about them without coming across judgmental?
Also some of her comments during the conversation I was hurt by. Like not caring about anyone else kids but her own, not her problem if her kids give these illnesses to other kids/babies/ pregnant people.

Thanks to those with helpful comments.

diveout

DifferentOpinions wrote: »

The problem I have that was already mentioned is during the time before my child is fully vaccinated, or if I find myself pregnant again. After that I probably wouldnt mind as much.

I fully believe in her choice not to vaccinate, and I understand her reasons for not wanting to based on her personal experiences. It never got into an issue in the conversation of me telling her she had to vaccinate at all or anything like that.

I have had myself a number of personal experiences - cervical cancer, 2 TB events, and Men C. anyway its not about the pro/anti debate.

How do I quell my fears / tell her about them without coming across judgmental?
Also some of her comments during the conversation I was hurt by. Like not caring about anyone else kids but her own, not her problem if her kids give these illnesses to other kids/babies/ pregnant people.

Thanks to those with helpful comments.

Well then she will totally understand if you keep your kids and or your pregnant self away.

You just say you are not comfortable with it. That's all.

Tokyo

DifferentOpinions wrote: »

Also some of her comments during the conversation I was hurt by. Like not caring about anyone else kids but her own, not her problem if her kids give these illnesses to other kids/babies/ pregnant people.

Is it possible that you read that comment out of context? If a parent were to say to me that they don't care about anyone else's kids, just their own in the context of this conversation, then I'd be inclined to believe that they were saying that they don't care that other people choose to vaccinate their kids if they want, but that she chooses not to vaccinate *her* kids. I find it hard to believe that any parent would in good conscience not care if their child was the local typhoid Mary, but then again, I wasn't there, so...

Consdering the nature of your concerns, have you considered sitting down with your GP or the local parenthood clinic and getting the facts from the horses mouth as it were about the risks to your children that you are worried about? The information that they give you may well put your mind at ease, and may also give you good advice on how to deal with this should your fears be justified... At the end of the day you can take the same stance as her - they are your kids and you are exercising your right to keep them away from somethign you berceive to be harmful to them, should her kids ever become sick...

LegacyUser

OP not getting into the pro/anti vaccine debt but it is possible to disagree on issues and remain friends. I am very anti blood sports esp fox hunting but one of my longest friendship is with a friend who is heavily involved with fox hunting. It's part of their job and they are very pro all blood sports. We just don't talk about it, they understand that I would protest the hunts and other blood sports and that if a vote came up on it what side I would fall on. We thought it might be an issue but we both have shared interests outside of their job so we spend time doing that.

Regarding the vaccine issue there is a health issue to consider and I would be very blunt with her that you wouldn't have your kids around hers when they are at risk, don't get into a discussion on the topic just be straight up, she has made her choice and those are the results of her choice. I would say the same if pregnancy happens, just be straight up "sorry but I can't risky my health/babies health because of your personal choices" Maybe they'll understand or maybe they'll be dicks about it and you'll loose the friendship.

dalta5billion

DifferentOpinions wrote: »

The problem I have that was already mentioned is during the time before my child is fully vaccinated, or if I find myself pregnant again. After that I probably wouldnt mind as much.

I fully believe in her choice not to vaccinate, and I understand her reasons for not wanting to based on her personal experiences. It never got into an issue in the conversation of me telling her she had to vaccinate at all or anything like that.

I have had myself a number of personal experiences - cervical cancer, 2 TB events, and Men C. anyway its not about the pro/anti debate.

How do I quell my fears / tell her about them without coming across judgmental?
Also some of her comments during the conversation I was hurt by. Like not caring about anyone else kids but her own, not her problem if her kids give these illnesses to other kids/babies/ pregnant people.

Thanks to those with helpful comments.

I would ask her: What about me? Would you care if my baby caught a brain damaging disease from your kid?

How she answered that question would decide for me whether she was my friend or not.

iguana

You say that part of the reason that you vaccinate is to protect children who can't be vaccinated as not all children can. Well considering that her older child had bad reactions to some vaccines, which can happen on rare occasions, then it's reasonable for her to suspect that her child is among those who can't be vaccinated. Her child is reasonably likely to be one of those children who you claim to want to protect, so what exactly is your problem?

As for measles, yes it can be a very, very serious disease but in the majority of cases it's not actually that big a deal. I had it as a toddler and I remember it as being like what I now know a migraine feels like for about 3 days, then it was over, no harm done. In otherwise healthy, first world children, it's rarely as drastic as the worst case scenarios which make the news. And if your baby is currently breastfed, dangers of measles are further reduced.

LegacyUser

iguana wrote: »

As for measles, yes it can be a very, very serious disease but in the majority of cases it's not actually that big a deal. I had it as a toddler and I remember it as being like what I now know a migraine feels like for about 3 days, then it was over, no harm done.

If it was only for 3 days then you had German measles ie Rubella also known as 3 day measles which is much milder and not nearly as risky as Measles. German measles are a huge risk for pregnant women with a 20% chance of miscarriage so the OP is right to be concerned.

OP try and look at positive at least your friend has been up front on the issue so at least you known and can take measures to protect your health/kids health if needed.

LegacyUser

@ iguana - It doesnt really matter if her children are ones that cant be vaccinated or not the issue I have remains the same. Her children put my baby at risk.

If youd like context I dont believe her children cant be vaccinated. Her eldest has had every illness going since the day she was born. She said that the 12 month vaccine gave her daughter flu symptoms for a week after (normal) then a week after recovering from that, her daughter picked something else up from the minders child. when the kid was only recovering from that she decided to give her daughter the 13month vac which landed the child in hospital. I think it was just poor choices/ circumstances but I could be wrong.

I think I will have to sit down and talk to her about my fears and see what she says. if she doesnt care about my fears then I suppose shes not a real friend. Also like has been said Im not sure theres much that can be done until my son is fully vaccinated. I also think its a good idea for me to talk to my GP/nurse about the situation too to see how at risk my son currently is.

Thanks everyone

kjl

Sounds like you mate is a bit of a moron, and she will regret it when her kid gets measles or mumps or tuberculosis or any of the incurable deadly diseases.

But... I think you will be fine, it's not like the diseases are rampant nowadays so it would be very unlikely that you kids would get infected before they got a chance to be vaccinated.

She said that the vaccines were full of harmful things and the diseases werent that bad anyway

This is just head banger stuff, this woman needs to be educated and really if she is your friend I would advise her to talk to a professional instead of bumbling off rubbish like this statement.

iguana

cant log in wrote: »

If it was only for 3 days then you had German measles ie Rubella also known as 3 day measles which is much milder and not nearly as risky as Measles. German measles are a huge risk for pregnant women with a 20% chance of miscarriage so the OP is right to be concerned.

Nope, I had "English" Measles when I was 3 and Rubella (German Measles) when I was 5, along with Mumps. Measles was the only one I was in anyway sick with, the illness might have lasted longer but I only felt unwell for 3 days. Having Rubella and Mumps was actually a great time. It was summer and my mum and dad set me up with all my toys and my Wendy House in the back garden as I was quarantined from my brother and the kids on the street who hadn't had those illnesses. My nanas and granda visited and brought me presents and I got to eat lots of jelly and ice-cream.

I guess if I had to define it, I'm pro-vax, my son is actually getting his MMR next Tuesday. But I also believe that we need to be honest about how serious, or not so serious in many cases, these illnesses are. Yes those illnesses can cause very serious, sometimes devastating problems for others, especially for children with other health problems, Rubella for pregnant women/foetuses, and Mumps for post-pubescent males. I believe if we can protect the vulnerable by doing something so simple as vaccinating our own children we have a moral duty to do it. But scaremongering is never a good thing, no matter what side of the debate it comes from.

retro:electro

"If she doesn't care about my fears then I suppose she's not a real friend"

The same can be said for yourself op, do you care about her fears for not wanting to immunise her child? What exactly do you expect to come from your sit down chat with her? Her to change her mind because of your fears? Well that's hardly fair to her beliefs.

ShowMeTheCash

I wasn't going to post on this but this is now getting stupid!

OK your friends children/child is not going to put you or your unborn/new baby at risk unless you decided to throw your baby into a bed beside them when they are ill!

Viruses and diseases are still present even if your immuse system is able to handle it, her kids, someone elses kids, airborne virus, someone at work, touching a door, handling money.... Your concern is simply stupid!

The main concern around unvaccinated kids are when you have a load of them together essentially you can have an epidemic prelonging the contagious term/time is a particular outbreak...

Are you pregnant?
Your immune system will act for the baby

All babies under 18 months are at some risk as their immune system is still developing, I suggest you simply use common sense!

I think your friend has probably read too much into the dangers of vaccines and has failed too look at say infant mortality rate pre-vaccinations.

You however are also being ridiculous, border line idiotic!

Tokyo

ShowMeTheCash - you're entitled to your opinion, however calling the OP "borderline idiotic" is not on and will not be tolerated here. Considering your infraction history, red card issued. Next time it'll be a forum ban.

I appreciate that the subject is close to some peoples hearts, but I'd also like to take the time o remind everyone that this is an advice thread for the OP's situation, not a debate on the pros and cons of vaccination.

Regards,
Mike

Faith

I'm surprised by the responses here, to be honest. Vaccinations aren't 100% effective, meaning that maybe 2 or 3% of vaccinated children can still become ill. So exposing your child to a disease via an unvaccinated playmate can be dangerous. Vaccinations help by herd immunity, and the more people that aren't vaccinated, the weaker that is. So the OP has every right to be worried about her childrens' health around unvaccinated children.

Your friend appears to have a valid reason for not vaccinating her kids, and I think you respect that, which is good. But you must put yourself and your kids first. So yes, I do think you need to bluntly say to her, if you are genuinely concerned, that you'd prefer that your children not play with hers, and that you'll be keeping your distance for health reasons in the event of pregnancy.

As long as she's prepared to respect your decisions in the same way that you're respecting hers, then I can't see the friendship having to end. You'll just keep your kids away from hers, and yourself in the event of pregnancy.

iguana

Faith wrote: »

Your friend appears to have a valid reason for not vaccinating her kids, and I think you respect that, which is good.

The OP has stated in her second post that she doesn't believe her friend's reasons. Though from what she describes it is possible that her friend is over-reacting and the older child suffered more from bad-timing/coincidence than vaccine damage. It's really just not possible for any of us to know whether the OP's friend has good reasons for her stance or if she has been affected by scaremongering.

blatantrereg

I would be a little shocked at your friend's attitude and be inclined not to trust them in a position of any responsibility when it came to my own family. However their child's health issues must be hard for them and it is probably an emotive reaction to that, rather than sheer stupidity - so maybe a sympathetic attitude rather than a critical one might be more appropriate and even maybe get through to her better.

As regards the possibility of children still being vulnerable after vaccination - a blood test can show if they have acquired the immunity or not. The chance of them not having acquired it might be as high as 10%, so it is not hysterical to consider this if you are concerned about it.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

Rubberchikken

You should agree to disagree.
If its a good friendship its surely not worth falling out over. After all they're her kids and she should be free to decide to vaccinate them or not.

After all while you know they mightnt be vaccinated you cant know that other peoples kids that you come into contact with arent vaccinated either.

LegacyUser

Hi and thanks for the responses.

Just thought I might clear some things up. I dont not believe her reasons for not vaccinating. Just that I dont know if her childs reaction to the vaccines means that the child is allergic to something in them. I fully believe the events as she describes them. She didnt even specifically say allergy when describing the situation. In fact Id say if the same happened to my child Id probably be edging the same way. She also mentioned a friend of a cousin in europe whos child had epileptic type fits after a vaccine and the child never spoke again. I understand her fears.
I just hope she equally understands mine. I dont really know what Id expect to get out of a chat. Probably just mutual respect on where we both stand and her accepting my reasons for distance. Its possible I wont even chat to her if I speak to the nurse first. Well see how that goes. Id just hate to ruin this friendship forever by possibly handling it wrong.
I agree that there is always a risk when you are out and about and playing with other kids etc. you dont know everything about everybody you meet and cant keep your children locked up but we meet up every week, her eldest is ALWAYS sick and we have been friends for 6 years and perhaps Im also a little hurt that shes only now telling me her kids arent vaccinated. I would have liked to know the first time I turned up at her place and told her I was pregnant. I dont expect her to tell everyone she meets but surely someone who is in constant contact? Perhaps not? I dunno....
Her choices for her kids are hers but they also affect me now. All I want is to keep my children safe, as she does hers. I also have fears for her kids going through a probably preventable disease, with terrible outcomes but its equally possible that theyll never get them or get them mildly. But it would hurt her if I told her that.
We have no problems accepting difference of opinions in each other ( we do it ALL the time) Im just hurt and scared by her actions and their potential effects on my family.

Anyway, Ill talk to the nurse, and then possibly talk to her. Hopefully the nurse will way lay my fears and this stress will have been for nothing.

dellas1979

DifferentOpinions wrote: »

Her children put my baby at risk.

Sorry-I think you've gotton this wrong and are looking at it from an isolated perspective/bubble.

ALL children/adults are putting your children at risk. Your children also put all children and adults at risk for catching different things. Its part of being human/having a body. Every cough/sneeze, contact at the post office, the supermarket, child care, petrol station, playing with other toys, breathing.

Its unfair to place or project your fears solely onto your friend's children. When you are not understanding the bigger picture. Are you going to keep your children isolated from all human contact until they have all their vaccines? Have your parents/their grandparents for example been vaccinated?

The majority of the population will not have been vaccinated with the vaccines now being offered to children.

deisemum

My older lad had his 12 month vaccinations and 3 months later got measles and was very sick with them even though it was classed as mild. I'd have hated to seen a bad dose.

I'm of an age when measles was a common childhood illness and I had measles and german measles and a number of other things as a child. I also know some people around my own age that ended up with brain damage, some very mild others more serious and I can even recall a child dying from it.

Measles are on the rise as there was a fall off in those being vaccinated. As a childminder I've been advised to include a vaccination policy to protect myself, ie., I'll only take children who are up to date with their vaccinations and have the vaccinations as they fall due unless I've a letter from the child's doctor that contra indicates vaccination.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/measles-on-the-rise-as-immunisation-falls-1.1763057